Thread: Damage Revisited

Originally Posted by SDLeary

1 point of damage is very significant. On average it represents about 1/11 of the ability of the character to take damage.

Except it doesn't really work like that in the real world. People aren't just lumps that give out after a certain amount of damage. Its' not so much how much cumulative damage you take as it is what specific parts of you get damaged.

That means that 11 single point hits will kill most characters! In the real world, a single point hit would probably hurt like hell, enough to temporarily distract a person from what they were doing if they were not used to dealing with notable pain. Even if you are using the heroic hit point option, it is still a significant amount of damage.

Yes, although in the real wolrd how much it hurts isn't the same as how significant the damage is. Often minor injuries can hurt worse than serious ones.

And, honestly, while skill should help determine how well an attack is placed, even a master can be thrown off by angle, etc, in dealing a definitive blow. Perhaps certain weapons should have more impact in Special and Critical situations, masters being able to hit these thresholds more often.

SDLeary

Yes, a master can be thrown off, but that is part of what the skill roll represents, right? A guy who rolls a critical hit wasn't thrown off. Perhaps if the special and crtical bonuses were tied to the weapon damage rating as much. Placement is probably more important with small light weapons, that with larger heavier ones.

Originally Posted by Link6746

Sorry, was in a fog when I wrote that and was thinking about someone's optional rule that adds more success levels than just 2 types of success and failure.

I think it might have been my optional rule. I had an idea about using 1/10th the difference between the attack and defense as a effect value, and getting rid of the current success levels.

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Except it doesn't really work like that in the real world. People aren't just lumps that give out after a certain amount of damage. Its' not so much how much cumulative damage you take as it is what specific parts of you get damaged.

No, of course not, its an abstract. But it is one that is fairly straightforward, easy to understand. The amount of punishment a body can take does vary from body to body, what an HP represents is a portion of that. Thus in my example a body could take 11 of that type of hit and end up in a state where the body would die before long.

Locational hits matter, but even there you have people in real life that get shot thru the heart, lungs, brain, and are still able to function. Long metal pipes thru the brain and live with no visible brain damage, etc.

The way the body functions is very very complex, and there is NO game system that models it well, at least one that most people would consider playable.

Yes, although in the real wolrd how much it hurts isn't the same as how significant the damage is. Often minor injuries can hurt worse than serious ones.

Also true. But I can almost guarantee you that if suddenly you were injured for 1/11 of the physical damage that your body could take, that you would feel it. You could be in a state when it happens where adrenaline helps you to push the pain to the side, or perhaps a mental state that allows you to feed off of the pain (Bloodrage/Berserk), but it would still be felt, and significant. Being drugged in some way could negate things.

Yes, a master can be thrown off, but that is part of what the skill roll represents, right? A guy who rolls a critical hit wasn't thrown off. Perhaps if the special and crtical bonuses were tied to the weapon damage rating as much. Placement is probably more important with small light weapons, that with larger heavier ones.

I've always seen a special/critical in BRP as somewhat independent to the defense. A master hits really well in a given round, well enough that he delivers a debilitating or fatal blow. This does NOT preclude the defender from doing just as well, or bing aided enough (armor, magic, etc.) to negate the effects of the blow of the master.

If you don't want to use crits and specials based upon weapon damage, then perhaps a Special allows the attacker to migrate a hit to one adjacent location with normal rolled damage; a Critical the same with the old cRQ2 special effects (for some weapon variability).

SDLeary

I really like this discussion on damage. As far as melee weapons i agree there should be a chance to do 1 point of damage. However firearms get more complicated. grazes from high powered rifle or pistols are very unlikely to do only one point of damage. example a graze from a .50 BMG will never do 1 point of damage even if it was a grazing hit, we are talking about a weapon that hits with such incredible force. i do like idea of grouping max weapon damage and damage bonus into one die roll for certain weapons. I think it is great that we can rethink things reverse engineer stuff, maybe not everything we come up with is practicle, but sometimes a treasure of a idea can spring from such conversation.

With powerful firearms you will, by necessity, be using multiple damage dice in any case - once you're past 1D20 you're into the more exotic polyhedral dice, which I tend to avoid because most people (including myself) don't have them in their dice bag. So, in practice, this is not much of a problem. It's at the lower levels (1D4, 1D6, 1D8, 1D10, etc.) where you should be able to get away with just one point of damage. Adds a bit more fear and hope to the game.

YMMV, as always.

Originally Posted by SDLeary

No, of course not, its an abstract. But it is one that is fairly straightforward, easy to understand.

Easy to understand but almost entirely wrong.


[qupte]
The amount of punishment a body can take does vary from body to body, what an HP represents is a portion of that. Thus in my example a body could take 11 of that type of hit and end up in a state where the body would die before long. [/quote]

No, not really. It's not that a body can take a certain amount of punishment, but the seriousness of the individual injuries. That is where hit points break down. Mathematically ten one pits hits are the same as one ten point hit. In BRP that is nearly true. But in real life, those ten 1 point hits are probably not life threatening.

Locational hits matter, but even there you have people in real life that get shot thru the heart, lungs, brain, and are still able to function. Long metal pipes thru the brain and live with no visible brain damage, etc.

The way the body functions is very very complex, and there is NO game system that models it well, at least one that most people would consider playable.

Yes, people can take some fantastic injuries and still function. ThHat's because in most cases it's not the injury that stops people, it's their reaction to it. Very few hits can actually stop somebody dead in the tracks. Yes, some hits will cause somebody to loose consciousness from blood loss, but that takes time. THe reason why people drop prone is becuase the freak out when they git hit, and kinda brainwash themselves into thinking they are dying. It's the same reason why animals can take lots of punishment, even a mortal hit and still keep going. They are too "dumb" to realize that they are dead.

And there are some systems that model this sort of wounding mechanic well, or at least better than BRP's HP mechanic. Not all of them are unplayable. A wound threshold severity method isn't any more complex that tracking Hit points.

Also true. But I can almost guarantee you that if suddenly you were injured for 1/11 of the physical damage that your body could take,

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But there is not 1/11th (actually 1/12th in BRP) magic number. Like I said it doesn"t really work that way. And doing so in BRP just leads to stupid situations like the guy getting killed by a bunch of pinpricks to his feet.

that you would feel it. You could be in a state when it happens where adrenaline helps you to push the pain to the side, or perhaps a mental state that allows you to feed off of the pain (Bloodrage/Berserk), but it would still be felt, and significant. Being drugged in some way could negate things.

Feel it sure. Be impaired by it, maybe. Get killed by it, no. Not even it I had taken the other ten points of damage.

I've always seen a special/critical in BRP as somewhat independent to the defense. A master hits really well in a given round, well enough that he delivers a debilitating or fatal blow. This does NOT preclude the defender from doing just as well, or bing aided enough (armor, magic, etc.) to negate the effects of the blow of the master.

The problem with that is some attacks just won't penetrate some armors. Period. This isn't so much a matter of personal armor, as there are joints are areas that might not be fully protected, but it is a big factor with cover. If somebody is ducked down behind a steel plate, then they not going to get hurt by a pistol round-unless they pop their head up or leave something sticking out. That's why I think impales should really be applied AFTER the armor.

If you don't want to use crits and specials based upon weapon damage, then perhaps a Special allows the attacker to migrate a hit to one adjacent location with normal rolled damage; a Critical the same with the old cRQ2 special effects (for some weapon variability).

SDLeary

I think the RQ6 method od choosing crits and special might help. My big objection is linking the effect of the special./crit directly to the weapon damage die. If the special/crit effect were independt of weapon damage die it would help. Like an impale adding a flat bonus to damage or some such. That way a high skilled character with a low damage weapon is more of a threat than a low skilled character with a weapon that has a high damage die.

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

That's why I think impales should really be applied AFTER the armor.

I agree, especially give that an impale simulates a hit in a "vital" location, which is usually where armour is the strongest. This kind of breaks down with limbs (because joints are the most delicate locations and also the most difficult to armour), but I draw the line at different damage systems for different locations ...

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

No, not really. It's not that a body can take a certain amount of punishment, but the seriousness of the individual injuries. That is where hit points break down. Mathematically ten one pits hits are the same as one ten point hit. In BRP that is nearly true. But in real life, those ten 1 point hits are probably not life threatening.

No, but probably enough to take you out of the action at least due to unconsciousness or fatigue.

Yes, people can take some fantastic injuries and still function. ThHat's because in most cases it's not the injury that stops people, it's their reaction to it. Very few hits can actually stop somebody dead in the tracks. Yes, some hits will cause somebody to loose consciousness from blood loss, but that takes time. THe reason why people drop prone is becuase the freak out when they git hit, and kinda brainwash themselves into thinking they are dying. It's the same reason why animals can take lots of punishment, even a mortal hit and still keep going. They are too "dumb" to realize that they are dead.

Pain is often an issue as well though. Once someones pain threshold is exceeded, they will often black out, regardless of the actual severity of the wound. Real shock is also a contributor, though rarely causes a person to loose consciousness when the injury initially occurs.

And there are some systems that model this sort of wounding mechanic well, or at least better than BRP's HP mechanic. Not all of them are unplayable. A wound threshold severity method isn't any more complex that tracking Hit points.

No, not all are unplayable... harsh term on my part. Lets say they also tend to have other issues, that when combined with more accurate modeling of injury make them much less enjoyable to play; your mileage may vary.

But there is not 1/11th (actually 1/12th in BRP) magic number. Like I said it doesn"t really work that way. And doing so in BRP just leads to stupid situations like the guy getting killed by a bunch of pinpricks to his feet.

Again, 1/11th or 1/12th of the damage a body can take is still a significant amount of damage. Now, I will agree that the character may not be dead at that point. In fact, I generally use negative 1/2 CON or CON for actual death. At zero HP however, they are truly out of the fight. Nothing, not even a critical Heroic (CON xX) roll will allow them to continue. They are unconscious or comatose.

Feel it sure. Be impaired by it, maybe. Get killed by it, no. Not even it I had taken the other ten points of damage.

I generally agree with you here, though I would say that actual impairment would depend on the nature of the damage, not just the amount. And you could effectively get killed by it. If a Giant stomps the whole party, you are effectively dead.

The problem with that is some attacks just won't penetrate some armors. Period. This isn't so much a matter of personal armor, as there are joints are areas that might not be fully protected, but it is a big factor with cover. If somebody is ducked down behind a steel plate, then they not going to get hurt by a pistol round-unless they pop their head up or leave something sticking out. That's why I think impales should really be applied AFTER the armor.

Sorry, I may have missed something with this quote. I agree that a pistol round wouldn't penetrate a steel plate, at least enough to do more than scratch the person hiding behind, depending on the thickness of the plate (5.7mm rounds and 4.6mm rounds might be different depending on the plate). Isn't this kind of instance modeled in a reduced chance to actually hit the person behind cover?

I think the RQ6 method od choosing crits and special might help. My big objection is linking the effect of the special./crit directly to the weapon damage die. If the special/crit effect were independt of weapon damage die it would help. Like an impale adding a flat bonus to damage or some such. That way a high skilled character with a low damage weapon is more of a threat than a low skilled character with a weapon that has a high damage die.

I wasn't thinking of RQ6s method, but Chaosium's RQ2 method. In cRQ2, an Impale was the total amount of damage the weapon could do, plus the weapons damage rolled again. In their example, Rurik using a spear that impaled would do 7 points (1d6+1 for short spear), plus an additional 1d6+1.

Now, RQ6s method could work, but I have issues with being able to choose the effect after the fact, ESPECIALLY with missile weapons. (they may have mitigated things somewhat, haven't made it that far in the book yet, basing things of mRQII/Legend).

SDLeary

Originally Posted by Vile

I agree, especially give that an impale simulates a hit in a "vital" location, which is usually where armour is the strongest. This kind of breaks down with limbs (because joints are the most delicate locations and also the most difficult to armour), but I draw the line at different damage systems for different locations ...

Except that a weapon, even if the armor is penetrated, is going to slow down a bit during penetration. This might be an insignificant amount, as with most modern firearms and say Late Medieval/Early Renaissance Plate, but with more archaic weapons enough to possibly reduce the damage by a notable amount.

SDLeary

Which would be modeled quite accurately by applying the impale modfier AFTER armor.

FOr example, let's say somebody is wearing 5 point armor (bezainted) and is hit by an attack that does 1D6. Now in standard BRP you roll 2D6 for the impale, which greatly improves your chance of penetrating the armor (or shield). In fact, the increase armor penetration is probably the major benefit of an impale in BRP.

But, if the damage were doubled AFTER armor, then that attack is much less dangerous to that man in 5 point armor.