Thread: How to fix Mongoose RuneQuest/Glorantha

Originally Posted by RosenMcStern

But then you must have a way to physically create a Rune from scratch, or else the overall quantity of runecasters would decrease with time, as runes left over from Godtime are used up by casters.

That would be a great basis for a land ala The Magic Goes Away by Larry Niven. The GM could quantify how much magic is left.

But if you don't want that feel, the runes could continue to manifest. As long as the Ur-Runes exist, they will continue to manifest materially on this plane. So there is an unending supply of the more prosaic physical runes.

Originally Posted by frogspawner

OK, for the first time in ages, I've been back to the MRQ Forum, to mine it for useful stuff. [lots of useful stuff omitted]

I really like some of the concepts there. I love the idea of people's spirits retaining their Rune affinities after death, and therefore becoming powerful ancestor spirits.

Steve

Originally Posted by frogspawner

Aha! But that's part of the beauty of it! This explains why physical runes are prevalent in 2nd Age Glorantha, but (virtually) unheard-of in the 3rd Age...

This was my idea on the subject, too, but it looks like the next iteration of HQ could introduce physical runes (or at least something similar) in the third age. This puts an end to the GAG concept of physical runes as a God Learner construct, which did not make so much sense, mythically speaking, to be honest. I have not got the details about this, as I did not attend conventions last year, but since Loz is involved in the rulemaking process along with less sensible individuals (you know who you are if you are reading this list, and luckily you are not) I hope they will not screw everything up.

I suggest we wait until we have more information about runes in HeroQuest before proposing other approaches to Rune Magic.

Originally Posted by deleriad

If you steal [a Rune-object] from an enemy then you have stolen some of that enemy's magic and it may sit around in a chest until such time as the enemy dies at which point it becomes unattuned again.

Sorry, but this is the same as the "kill them and take their stuff" scenario which should be avoided.

Originally Posted by deleriad

In narrative terms I envision the old thane dying and passing on his torque of leadership to his eldest son. The torque contains a motion rune but when the son tries to attune it he fails, leading to whispers from other clan members that maybe the son is not up to the job.

Fine narrative, but there's nothing to stop some brigand killing the old thane and taking the Rune - if it's an object - and then having just the same chance as the rightful heir to attune it. Doesn't seem right.
Now if, as I'd say, the Rune/crystal had been absorbed into the thane's own bloodstream, then maybe someone of his own bloodline might get a chance to inherit it, if voluntarily given...?

Originally Posted by deleriad

Finally I don't recall exactly but didn't Powered Crystals in RQ2 have to be attuned to a user and then couldn't be transferred short of death?

Nah, they could be un-attuned voluntarily (except cursed ones...). You could only have one, though, IIRC.

Originally Posted by sdavies2720

But if you don't want that feel, the runes could continue to manifest. As long as the Ur-Runes exist, they will continue to manifest materially on this plane. So there is an unending supply of the more prosaic physical runes.

Personally, I'd prefer only truly rare/exceptional circumstances to allow physical Runes to manifest.

Originally Posted by RosenMcStern

Originally Posted by frogspawner

Aha! But that's part of the beauty of it! This explains why physical runes are prevalent in 2nd Age Glorantha, but (virtually) unheard-of in the 3rd Age...

This was my idea on the subject, too, but it looks like the next iteration of HQ could introduce physical runes (or at least something similar) in the third age.

Dreadful news. They seem intent on introducing differences for the sake of it (or, rather, for the sake of making a deliberate break from older material. To improve sales of their new products, a cynical person might think... )

Originally Posted by RosenMcStern

I hope they will not screw everything up.

"A triumph of hope over experience" is the phrase, I'm afraid, Rosie.

Originally Posted by RosenMcStern

I suggest we wait until we have more information about runes in HeroQuest before proposing other approaches to Rune Magic.

I suggest we do what we can to fix the mess Mongoose/GS have already made (and I think we're close, if not there already!) and worry about fixing whatever further Glorantha-breaking nonsense they come out with if/when it happens.

Originally Posted by frogspawner

Personally, I'd prefer only truly rare/exceptional circumstances to allow physical Runes to manifest.

I think the issue of whether or not there are physical manifestations of runes is a distraction when you're looking at fixing the rules for a game. If physical rune objects don't exist in your Glorantha then modify the rules to match accordingly. The default position in MRQ is that runes manifest physically, are attuned for a lifetime, can be re-attuned after death and that rune magic can't be cast without an integrated physical rune object. There is nothing broken about that characterisation. There is a breakage between that characterisation and rune magic for cults which makes the system internally inconsistent. My interest is in addressing that breakage is to allow for the possibility of runecasting without needing to integrate a physical rune object and allowing cults to be able to map different magics to the runes their God possesses based on their myths.

Issues like the prevalence of rune objects, what happens to a rune object when its host dies, whether there are non-standard forms of integration and so on are, in my opinion, fluff-led decisions which will vary by game world and player preference.

So attempting to forge an entirely false concensus.

2nd Age - lots of physical runes.
Owners/attuned die runes may either a) disappear back to the god plane or b) hang around to be stolen

3rd Age - very few physical runes. If you want access then you join the cult of a god attuned to them.


Maybe THAT's the real reason that the Gloranthan gods are so keen on keeping their worshippers souls after death. if you pledge yourself to a deity when you die they get to keep your runes. If you haven't then some other puny mortal gets to attune them and keep them where THEY SHOULD NOT BE




Al

You should never derive setting-specific information from game mechanics.

RQM has runes and is set in the 2nd Age. RQ2/3 didn't have runes in the same way and is set in the 3rd Age. This doesn't mean that runes disappeared in the 2nd Age. In my opinion, anyway.

HeroQuest 2 is going to have runes and is set in 3rd Age. Does that mean that 3rd Age suddenly has runes again?

When HeroQuest came out, some of the rules mechanics were shoehorned into stories and myths and they just didn't work (for me, anyway).

Game mechanics should be used to interpret the setting-specific qualities, not vice versa.

Originally Posted by soltakss

You should never derive setting-specific information from game mechanics.

This is undoubtedly true though retconning (which is essentially what's at stake) is a major fan pastime.

HQ2.0 may or may not surface one day and, afterwards, the Gloranthan magic book may arrive and the authors may or may not specify whether in HQ2.0 physical rune objects exist in Glorantha.

I personally quite like the idea of a boom in physical rune objects in the Second Age due to God Learner activities and I like some of the storytelling you can do around this. It would almost certainly be a retcon. That said quite a lot of Glorantha was made up on the spur of the moment to suit the needs of a particular game so there is a noble tradition of it.

However, this thread is in danger of spinning off into Gloranthan esoterica.

Originally Posted by soltakss

You should never derive setting-specific information from game mechanics.

One should never use the word 'you' when one means 'one'
One should never make absolute pronouncements on make-believe worlds in the arena of disagreement and ill-defined concepts that is an internet discussion forum


That being said.........

Yes absolutely the rules should be servant of the setting (story/hobby/having a good time) not vice versa and a good enough point to warrant repettition :thumb:

The problem (if problem it be) is that the game explanation for runes in MRQ is very different from that in RQI-III. And there has been a change of setting (or time period at least) so peeps do ponder the significance of this.

I am not for one moment that my explanation/suggestion is the paragon of elegant simplicty which makes all clear. But it interests me. And (sad to say) I use these boards more as a method of thinking aloud and seeing what views others have rather than as medium for me to make great and helpful suggestions to help others.



Al

All of the above IMMO

Originally Posted by deleriad

The default position in MRQ is that runes manifest physically, are attuned for a lifetime, can be re-attuned after death and that rune magic can't be cast without an integrated physical rune object. There is nothing broken about that characterisation.

No. The point in bold breaks Glorantha by turning it into just another D&D-style "kill things and their stuff" setting (or can do, if Runes are anything other than extremely rare).

Originally Posted by deleriad

There is a breakage between that characterisation and rune magic for cults which makes the system internally inconsistent. My interest is in addressing that breakage is to allow for the possibility of runecasting without needing to integrate a physical rune object and allowing cults to be able to map different magics to the runes their God possesses based on their myths.

Yes. Rules supporting that are necessary to allow GMs to play their Glorantha without Runes being common, if they wish.

Originally Posted by Al.

2nd Age - lots of physical runes.
Owners/attuned die runes may either a) disappear back to the god plane or b) hang around to be stolen

3rd Age - very few physical runes. If you want access then you join the cult of a god attuned to them.

Maybe THAT's the real reason that the Gloranthan gods are so keen on keeping their worshippers souls after death. if you pledge yourself to a deity when you die they get to keep your runes. If you haven't then some other puny mortal gets to attune them and keep them where THEY SHOULD NOT BE

Yes, that fixes the physical Runes problem nicely...
...so long as (b) is reserved for extra-special occasions!