Thread: The Strengths of BRP

So there's a great discussion going on in this thread:
Shelfjacked or "Dude! Where's my game?"

With some good views and information about promoting both shelf space and people in general to get into the hobby as well as the current state of how gamers purchase their source books. I highly recommend the read. However, that got me thinking on how to promote the system to GM's in particular. I think the best way is present the strengths and weaknesses of the system to them as well as showing them the system in play. I wanted to open up a separate discussion about the strengths and weaknesses of the system in general to help people make an informed decision about if this system is right for them.

The Skill and Stat System:
The skill + stat system, like that of D&D and other RPG's, is a great way to flesh out what your character is good at. You've got a physical and mental description through that of stats and BRP gives a great way to make rolls based solely off stats. Does something obscure come up that doesn't warrant the use of a separate skill? Well, just use your stats! Need to get granular and really define what you're character is good at for combat, conversations, dungeon crawling, etc? You've got it! BRP fleshes out a large set of skills that cover both role playing and combat. You could lean towards a combat heavy scenario, or one that encourages sneaking, solving, talking, and deceiving your way around the hack and slash parts and your characters would still be heavily involved.

Class-less and Level-less System:
This blew my mind when I first considered it in a tabletop RPG. The best comparison I can give to video games is Skyrim or Runequest. Your character can do everything the second you sit down at the table. There's no waiting until level 14 when your Wizard gets that niche-defining spell that you actually get to play like you want, or level 8 until your rogue gets that ability you really need. So how do you improve? You get better at doing what you do. If you shoot a bow, you get better at shooting a bow. If you sneak, backstab, and deceive, you get better at each of those in turn. If you're a sharpshooter, you get better with your weapon of choice. Your stats rise very rarely so you don't have a power gap from being a weakling to having god-like powers at level 20. When you make your Orc Warrior, dumb as a rock but huge and strong, covered in armor and armed from head to toe, you have access to all the tools you need. Procurement of magical artifacts, completion of story elements, and wealth is what drives your character instead of XP and other abstract confines.

Rules Heavy and Rules Light:
The BRP book has a lot of rules in it. This is both good and bad as every time you stop to look up a rule you take away the tension and action of the moment. However, while BRP gives a wide berth of rules, very little is actually needed to play the game. The skills and stats of a player along with good old fashioned GM ingenuity can probably come up with a quick fix to what you want to do. The extra rules are there to allow you to adjust the rules to your setting, campaign, and play style. It's giving you ways to play the game how you want instead of strapping you to their complicated rules and mechanics. When it comes down to the table all the rules fade away and become another tool for you to weave an engaging story for your players to romp in.

Complete System:
Everything you need to ever play a BRP game is contained in one book. You don't need 10 $30+ books to have a wide range of wizards, warriors, wrongdoers, and creatures. The BRP core rulebook gives you everything you need to sculpt whatever your heart desires for your campaign. However, if you want to diversify or don't want to set up the specifics for your game there are optional supplements you can purchase. These give you everything from adjusting the game to different settings, giving you different takes on mechanics to even full scenarios you can pick up and run with your gamers. Nothing about the BRP system forces or even encourages you to purchase miniatures, tile sets, extra books, or anything else you may or may not need.

These are all strengths but I really feel the downsides of BRP (generality and sometimes obscurity due to said generality) can be completely negated by supplements or just some good old fashioned work by the DM. Thoughts?

Originally Posted by Robsbot

Class-less and Level-less System:
This blew my mind when I first considered it in a tabletop RPG. The best comparison I can give to video games is Skyrim or Runequest. Your character can do everything the second you sit down at the table. There's no waiting until level 14 when your Wizard gets that niche-defining spell that you actually get to play like you want, or level 8 until your rogue gets that ability you really need. So how do you improve? You get better at doing what you do. If you shoot a bow, you get better at shooting a bow. If you sneak, backstab, and deceive, you get better at each of those in turn. If you're a sharpshooter, you get better with your weapon of choice. Your stats rise very rarely so you don't have a power gap from being a weakling to having god-like powers at level 20. When you make your Orc Warrior, dumb as a rock but huge and strong, covered in armor and armed from head to toe, you have access to all the tools you need. Procurement of magical artifacts, completion of story elements, and wealth is what drives your character instead of XP and other abstract confines.

Yeah, I remember that feeling when I grasped the idea of "No levels!" It is nice to start with a competent character and even do some things better than other characters that have been adventuring for quite some time. A minor drawback to that is that most BRP characters will never become demi-god powerful. They can certainly improve, but rarely a contrast like you find between a 1st level character compared to an 8th level one. In most supers games you can easily build a character and jump right into the action. The exceptions to that, that I can remember, would be the Palladium Heroes Unlimited and the recent Pathfinder Heroes Wear Masks RPGs. In both games your supers will start at first level and work up. Both games have some ideas and stuff worth stealing for other super games, but the idea of levels is REALLY out of place with super heroes (IMHO).

These are all strengths but I really feel the downsides of BRP (generality and sometimes obscurity due to said generality) can be completely negated by supplements or just some good old fashioned work by the DM. Thoughts?

A good system, combined with a great setting is a powerful thing. Look at how Call of Cthulhu has remained relevant. To use a videogame console analogy, players often refer to a console as having (or lacking) a "killer app" (which is a game that most want to play and so are willing to buy the console to do so). BRP lacks a "killer app".

You can often find a copy of CoC on the bookshelf if a store has an RPG section. You probably won't see BRP. Having just taught a version of BRP to two RPG newbies, I know how easy the system can be picked up. It's just that most will never know BRP exists (outside of maybe CoC), and even if they do, any gamers around them are 90% of the time playing some version of D&D.

Originally Posted by ORtrail

A good system, combined with a great setting is a powerful thing. Look at how Call of Cthulhu has remained relevant. To use a videogame console analogy, players often refer to a console as having (or lacking) a "killer app" (which is a game that most want to play and so are willing to buy the console to do so). BRP lacks a "killer app".

I think the BGB was intended, instead, as a tool empowering both designers and players to build up their killer app. Even if the generic system has been out for almost 5 years, there are still several games that include both setting and the core ruleset (CoC, The Laundry, Magic World). The Golden Book is there to help you cross-pollinate among different editions of the game or different setting books, or to allow you to "do it yourself", not as the main thing.

IMO, Chaosium should take advantage of the popularity of Call of Cthulhu, the "killer app," to bring players in. Then advertise BRP to them as, "Hey, you like this system? How about playing it for fantasy and science fiction? <insert product examples> AND we have this BGB toolset so you can emulate your favorite genre!"

Originally Posted by Baron

IMO, Chaosium should take advantage of the popularity of Call of Cthulhu, the "killer app," to bring players in. Then advertise BRP to them as, "Hey, you like this system? How about playing it for fantasy and science fiction? <insert product examples> AND we have this BGB toolset so you can emulate your favorite genre!"

I agree with this, and this is one of the forces of BRP. Switching for the one to the other or mix them is easy. Why does Windows have much more success than Mac or Unix ? Why did the VHS-system beat the Betamax ? Because -among others- of the higher choice in application/films/software/whatever you call it. WotC understood this with the D20 open license. I agree that the communication of the D100-ists is not good enough. We shall write "D100 sysrtem" or "Basic System" above all the titles of the games using it.
Of course, all this depends also on the tastes of players: monomaniacs do not care about having a big choice fo games, they want a single big setting -CoC or Glorantha are such. Or does the new generation of players like to jump from a setting to another, like they do with video games (Playstation) ? I have no idea.

Question: do players -and even more newbies- prefer to purchase a full rule + setting game rather than the BGB, which is made for games designers and has no setting in it, and spend some more money for a setting ? I think they do. BGP is acquired by fanatic like us, who want to design their own games. How are the sales of pure BRP settings without rules included, compared to full games ? Shall the authors write all the extentions with the rules, or at least will all the extra rules not contained in the free Quick Start ?

Another strength of the BRP is that it is a coherent logical system based on very few intuitive concept: it makes it easy to understand, but also to create quick spot tules on the fly, without breaking the rythm looking for rules in a book.

Originally Posted by Zit

We shall write "D100 system" or "Basic System" above all the titles of the games using it.

Do we already ? Hoooo. May be we shall write it bigger Or use a logo

But it is not on CoC, RQ, Legend, Clockwork & Chivalry, D101 (well almost not...), etc.

Originally Posted by RosenMcStern

I think the BGB was intended, instead, as a tool empowering both designers and players to build up their killer app. Even if the generic system has been out for almost 5 years, there are still several games that include both setting and the core ruleset (CoC, The Laundry, Magic World). The Golden Book is there to help you cross-pollinate among different editions of the game or different setting books, or to allow you to "do it yourself", not as the main thing.

Just an FYI with regards to Magic World. Unless it has changed dramatically since the version that I've seen, the way the setting in Magic World is presented, it can be perceived as an example, not the default. In fact, outside the Table of Contents, the setting, the Southern Reaches, is not even mentioned until the very end of the book. The game itself is designed to be dark-ish fantasy, but not at all setting dependent, or even setting integrated.

There is a separate guide that better chronicles the Southern Reaches being worked on that better fleshes this example setting out.

SDLeary

Man you guys are really making me want Magic World out yesterday. The supplement alone has me giddy as a school girl. SORCERY SUMMONING EXPANSION?!? WHAAAAAAAT? /mindblown

I agree completely with the CoC -> BRP transition. It's how I got into BRP, and how I've introduced everyone to the BRP system. Plus it forces players to evaluate the system outside of D&D, Shadowrun, and the other more popular RPG settings since the setting, storytelling, and character development (or degeneration as the case may be) is completely different from anything they would have ever seen. It shows how well the system can stand on it's own without the "awww, it's fantasy but it doesn't play like X feature in D&D" mentality.

BRP is really the original GURPS, and probably should have capitalized on that, since, IMNSHO, it is much superior to GURPS. In any case, its strengths to me lie in its great simplicity and logic. As I noted in a post on my blog (Sword Of Sorcery: Why I Love BRP (#1)) (and pardon my shameless plug ), there's things I've seen in other games that require pages and pages of explanation, when, in fact, in BRP they could be handled by one simple table.

Originally Posted by Aycorn

BRP is really the original GURPS, and probably should have capitalized on that, since, IMNSHO, it is much superior to GURPS.

Sorry to say it so frankly but I don't agree with that.

To me (who loves the two systems) BRP is not superior to GURPS and vice versa. Both are very good, but their purpose are just different...

GURPS provides dense rules, where every detail is finely thought, weighted and linked to every other detail, while BRP offers lighter and simpler optional rules, letting the GM interpret them as he exactly desires.

Furthermore, GURPS emphasizes simulationism (the players have to think as if they really were their character and must describe their actions in full detail before rolling dice, especially during combats) while BRP emhasizes narrativism (the players describe what they do without to much detail and the dice say how they exactly do it).

The rules about aiming clearly show that...

In GURPS, the bonus when you take all your time to aim before pulling the trigger will have a huge impact on the result. If you aim for 3 seconds, firmly bracing your pump shotgun 12G before shooting, for instance, you will have a +6 bonus... On 3D6! How the character exactly does what he tries to do really changes the result!

In BRP, if you you aim for 10 seconds, firmly bracing your pump shotgun 12G before shooting, you only have a bonus of 20% of your skill. That is +10% for an average character and +15% for an expert one! What the character exactly does is not as important as how skilled he is (the story is more important that how the character is played).

So which is really better?

It is impossible to say it. It all depends on what you really like when you play.