[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

1) Oh come on, by that reasoning we can't come to any sort of conclusions or, indeed, any use for damage points. What damage points really mean isn't vague. It is a measure of how much punishment something (or someone) can take before ceasing to function and or dying.

By your argument, how can we assign damage rating to weapons, or AP to armor? Really.

Honestly, I do think such things are by their nature somewhat arbitrary. Certainly, fiddling over fine details strikes me as normally operating past the limits of knowledge in most cases. People can't even consistently agree what firearms are "better"; how are you going to argue whether the distinction if important enough to represent in a game system?

The whole point of 'damage" ratings is that they reflect a relative ability of weapons to inflict injury.

Yes, but what do those differences _mean_ in the game system? How important is the precision? How distinct are they really in real life? I think all these are less clearcut than I suspect you do.

The problem with the impale rule is that it doubles not only the ability of a weapon to inflict a more serious injury, but to bypass defenses as well. In the real world, a certain thickness of materal will stop a bullet. WIth the impale rule, 1 in 5 hits will have about twice the penetrating power in terms of damage points.

But armor _doesn't_ just represent thickness of material. If that was the only criteria, most armor would be overstated or understated. Just like weapon damages its factoring in a lot of issues about how armor works (consider the fact the system makes no real distinction between flexible and inflexible armor, or have any way to deal with armor with true dead space in it); with rigid armors, things like sloping matter, too; a slightly arched plate is more likely to cause something to slide off in part than one that is flat, and much more than one with concave spots. This is more important with vehicular armors than personal ones, but its relevant with all armor by its nature. So how well a round that has focal point hits can be incredibly important for penetration with real armors.

Arguably, armor expected to be proofed against real bullets should be set slightly _higher_ than their expected maximum prior to impale, but I still think you're understimating the real harm kinetic transfer, even spread out, can do.

For instance, an implaling .45 round at 2d10+4,about the same as an elephant gun! (3D6+4).

And I'll argue thats intrinsic in the limits of simulation present. I'd also argue its because the .45 is overstated, in part because it was written up to be used in a system that doesn't deal with hit locations, and thus understates the effect of smaller damages.

2. Perhaps. But by how much? The 5th edition CoC firearm values are poor numbers. Chasoium has used different values in the past, and they did a better job.

Well, as I said above, I don't think there's going to be an easy fix in a game that that uses a fixed pool of hit points as large as the basic hit point model in BRP.

Well, you've been defending them so far. Those numbers are the cause of

No, I'm defending the cause of the problem, and arguing sub points. Not the same thing. I'm not defending the specific numbers because I don't even know them; the last edition of CoC I own was probably 1st, and the most recent numbers for firearms I have for BRP accessible are the ones in the standalone Superworld.

Yup. Several RPGs do that. With BRP I thing a straight halving/doubling mechanic might be too severe (most games with halving/doubling don't have a fixed HP system). But something along those lines would help.

Well, as I said (and you seem to at least somewhat agree) you're only going to fix so much of this without subdividing hit points in some way, whether its by hit location or use of degree of wounds. Without that, you're either going to end up with overly lethal handguns, underlethal rifles, or possibly both (and if you don't use care when setting up the subdivision, you may end up with _everything_ overlethal).

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And, lots of fuel....

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Well, yeah, but getting a fuel leak can quickly become a problem in and of itself. Its not like empty cargo space.

Probably mine too. Like I wrote earlier, CORPS has hit locations for vehicles and a damage system that can be equated toBRP fairly easily. Use Timelords/CORPS based damage rating would fix a lot of the CoC problems, too, or at least reduce them.

Its really hard to have a pool hit point system--even a fixed and relatively small one like BRP does--and not have this kind of thing come up.