BRP Jorune

[vagabond]

So, I am starting to get down and dirty with this conversion, compiling all

of my scattered notes, links to conversations on various forusm, and saved

emails from the Yahoo group, as well as some previous work by others (like

Nick).

So, I am considering keeping the standard BRP stats with the following

modifications: dump SIZ as a stat and make it a modifier, replace with

COL(OR). Maybe swap APP out for CHA.

Another issue I want to tackle is Color and Color Points. Rereading 3rd

edition Jorune, I like Color as a stat and Moon Skills and how they derive

from Color. I also am trying to figure out how to properly use the Moon

Skills as the core skill to roll against for Dysha weaving instead of individual

Dysha skills (I have never been fond of individual skills for spells) but

still find away to reflect the different difficulties of some Dyshas as well as

a good way to improve Moon Skills with respect to Dysha use. I have a few

ideas, but for now, I want to concentrate on the following issue - the use

of Color Points.

Now, after rereading things, I find that Color Points are mainly used for Caji

Entropy (temporarily increasing Isho) and learning new Dyshas. For the former,

I think I can get away with just using Isho - the gains can easily outweigh

the Isho spent, but makes it a bit riskier since you are gambling with Isho

you have now vs. Isho you might gain. I need to play with the costs vs. gains

but so far, I think it looks good. For the use of Color Points in learning new

Dyshas, I think I can easily drop it since the Jorune mechanics have you

spend both Color Points and Isho when learning new Dyshas, so I don't think

there is a need to have pools of Color Points to worry about here as well.

Again, you are gambling with your Isho.

So, any thoughts?

-V

[Merak Gren]

When I first thought about this, I just thought of just linking Colour and Isho to POW.

This way, it eliminates the odd situation where with random chargen, you have too much of one and not enough of the other.

Just my thoughts. I couldn't think for a good enough reason to have them separate.

[vagabond]

From the Jorune Group list:

On Mon, Jun 22, 2009 at 11:25 AM, Sam wrote:

what do you see as the biggest hurdle except for time in this conversion?

________________________________

Really, I think the biggest hurdles will be, in order, 1) Isho and Dyshas, especially

as they scale up for Shanthas, 2) Using Allegiance to model the Drennship

mechanic and create a desirable impetus for players to desire Drennship, as well

as some other Allegiances for those players who either cannot attain Drennship

or want to go for something else (of course, I may have to make it possible to

have multiple Allegiances, and make some Allegiances mutually exclusive - a

Traits and Passions look may be warranted) and 3) capture some of the flavor of

Jorune combat into the BRP mechanic, as well as provide an alternative combat

system that is more Jorune-like but still uses BRP as the base (this also implies

that energy weapons and shields will get dealt with appropriately, keeping some

armor's advantages over certain weapon types).

Thankfully, I think the core stats and derived stats are easily migrated (once I solve

my Color Point dilemma), as well as the basic skill system. Since 3rd edition

Jorune uses d20 for the most part, simply multiplying by 5 works well - even when

figuring out initial Moon Skills from Color.

Edited June 22, 2009 by vagabond

[vagabond]

When I first thought about this, I just thought of just linking Colour and Isho to POW.

This way, it eliminates the odd situation where with random chargen, you have too much of one and not enough of the other.

Just my thoughts. I couldn't think for a good enough reason to have them separate.

I can

Seriously, I had thought of that too, just using POW (Isho) as the core, but

then I thought about variation amongst both races and individuals within

those races, where some may be able to tap into more raw Isho while others

are able to manipulate smaller amounts better. Like Crugar being able to "cast"

Lightning Blast (and maybe other Desti based Dyshas) - they can harness the

Isho, but are only really adept with Desti. I also envision using Color and Moon

Skills in other ways. In the end, it made much more sense to use both Color

and Isho, and it makes things a little easier in adaptation. And, I kind of like

it when you have "too much of one but not enough of the other" - makes for

interesting diversity in Isho manipulating/wielding entities. I am also fond of

the old Stormbringer's use of POW + INT for Sorcery, instead of just POW

for the newer Elric! version. I often ditch the INT > 15 requirement in

SB1-3 since I like seeing sorcerors with raw untrained ability.

-V

[Merak Gren]

Thanks. I had not considered the effect on different species. I only looked at it from a human centric perspective.

[ClawCarver]

Cheers for kicking this one off, Vagabond. BRP Jorune has been on my mind lately, too, and I've been blowing the dust off my old notes and trying to think about the project afresh. My first principles are: I love Jorune the setting, but I dislike SoJ the system(s) because, for me, the overly complex and crunchy mechanics get in the way. I like BRP because it's relatively streamlined, elegant and intuitive (and I've been playing it for a quarter of a century). In my tinkering towards a conversion, I too have used '80s Stormbringer as a template and springboard.

My specific reactions so far:

I don't like SoJ combat. I personally wouldn't have any urge to try and replicate its flavour in BRP. This is purely personal taste; I'll take BRP's unfussiness over SoJ's simulationist "realism" any day of the week. I like to resolve combat as quickly and simply as possible (within reason) and get on with the interesting stuff.

I agree that dyshas and associated isho tricks pose the greatest challenge to successful conversion. Your idea of using Moon Skills for dysha use, rather than having an individual skill for each orb or bolt or whatever, makes good sense to me, and sits very comfortably with my natural inclination to strip down and simplify at every opportunity.

Like Merak Gren, I had pretty much ditched Color (COL?) as an attribute, and intended to use POW (renamed ISH?) as a base from which to derive the values of Color Points, Max Isho, etc. However, your arguments are pretty convincing, and now I find myself swithering about whether or not to reinstate COL.

May I ask why you want to lose SIZ? If we're converting Jorune to BRP, then surely SIZ is standard. (Although I've done my share of head-scratching while trying to calculate appropriate SIZ ranges for corondon, vodra, etc.:confused:)

Anyway, it's fascinating stuff and I think you're on the right track. Where we differ, I think it's because we're coming at the project with somewhat different goals in mind. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I infer that you're concerned with retaining a "feel" of Jorune's mechanics, and with converting existing characters. I just crave clarity and simplicity. I haven't run Jorune for years, largely because I find the system cumbersome and ugly, and I'm looking to start from scratch (new characters, new dawn!) with BRP so I can dive into that crazy, beautiful, baroque world all over again.

[vagabond]

Cheers CC,

I don't like SoJ combat. I personally wouldn't have any urge to try and replicate its flavour in BRP. This is purely personal taste; I'll take BRP's unfussiness over SoJ's simulationist "realism" any day of the week. I like to resolve combat as quickly and simply as possible (within reason) and get on with the interesting stuff.

Oh, I think I will retain BRP's "unfussiness" for the most part. Perhaps I

mispoke a little. What I want to bring over from Jorune is some of the

options given in combat, most of which are already well represented by

options in BRP, as well as how different armor affects different weapons.

In the process, I will have an "Appendix" where the wound system from

Jorune will fit into the BRP scheme as well, but allow groups to ditch HP

altogether in favor of the wound system. One reason for this is to keep

the feel with the appendix, but also to help figure out the best way to port

over weapon and armor values.

May I ask why you want to lose SIZ? If we're converting Jorune to BRP, then surely SIZ is standard. (Although I've done my share of head-scratching while trying to calculate appropriate SIZ ranges for corondon, vodra, etc.:confused:)

Part of it is the desire to work with a set number of stats - I dislike adding

too many, even dumping EDU, which exists in BRP as an option and in

Jorune. Another part is that SIZ in BRP has issues to start with, and may

work better as a multiplier for things like HP, Damage Bonuses, etc. - issues

that have come up in discussion here before. The nice thing is, Jorune

already uses a SIZ modifier, so it may be a fairly straight port.

Anyway, it's fascinating stuff and I think you're on the right track. Where we differ, I think it's because we're coming at the project with somewhat different goals in mind. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I infer that you're concerned with retaining a "feel" of Jorune's mechanics, and with converting existing characters. I just crave clarity and simplicity. I haven't run Jorune for years, largely because I find the system cumbersome and ugly, and I'm looking to start from scratch (new characters, new dawn!) with BRP so I can dive into that crazy, beautiful, baroque world all over again.

I am trying to balance the feel of Jorune's mechanics with the clarity and

simplicity of BRP. Converting characters will play a part in my efforts, and a

good test of my rules conversion will be how easily and closely the

conversion of characters works, but it is not my focus. I do not expect such

conversions to be exact, just close.

-V

[Merak Gren]

There are several conversions to other systems in the Jorune site. Not being familiar with most of the systems on offer, I have not looked at them, but I was wondering whether there is anything to learn from them?

[ClawCarver]

Cheers for the rapid response! I'm off to practise my Set Up Camp and Wilderness Travel skills before they're converted out of existence. I look forward to catching up when I return.

[NickMiddleton]

Ian - life of is traumatic and hectic at the moment so not sure when I'll get a chance to properly sit down and read / follow this but fel free to use anything I've done previously and I'll hope to be able to pitch a bit soon.

Cheers,

Nick

[Al.]

In MOST cases STR is a pretty good indicature of SIZ anyway (especially SIZ as written as a mesure of mass, rather than SIZ as interpolated as a woolly indicator of length/height)

Could you not stick to POW. Have Colour equal to POW but provide the OPTION for players of swapping points between the two?

Al

[vagabond]

Ian - life of is traumatic and hectic at the moment so not sure when I'll get a chance to properly sit down and read / follow this but fel free to use anything I've done previously and I'll hope to be able to pitch a bit soon.

Cheers,

Nick

Thanks Nick, I will take both offers under advisement. I look forward to it,

when things settle. Actually, things here are a bit hectic, but I will have

a chunk of time to work on it soon - hence getting my notes in order. And,

no, there is nothing to read into that statement - work and family life are

well enough

Ian

[vagabond]

In MOST cases STR is a pretty good indicature of SIZ anyway (especially SIZ as written as a mesure of mass, rather than SIZ as interpolated as a woolly indicator of length/height)

Could you not stick to POW. Have Colour equal to POW but provide the OPTION for players of swapping points between the two?

Al

The original version of Stormbringer had a nice chart for SIZ - mostly based

upon height and weight, but it also included a "body frame" concept. The

height/weight charts had three ranges per SIZ, one for light frames, one for

medium frames and one for heavy frames. I will use that, as well as the Size

modifiers and heights/weights and subtle mass references in Jorune to map

things out. I may make the SIZ modifier affected somewhat by STR, but I

am not set on that.

POW will become ISHO (keeping the Jorune stat name). As I said, some (if not

all) creatures, native and alien, on Jorune are sensitive to only certain Colors.

So, the idea of having POW represent both Isho and Color, and allowing PCs

to swap points between the two, does not fit with what I am conceptualizing.

I like that it will be possible to have PCs with great ability to manipulate Isho,

but may not have tremendous quantities of it, and PCs with tremendous raw

Isho, but lack the refinement to manipulate it well, as well as great skill in

manipulation and raw Isho. Just using POW as the anchor for determining

Moon Skills and Isho points kind of gets away from how Isho works in Jorune.

Ian

[Al.]

The original version of Stormbringer had a nice chart for SIZ - mostly based upon height and weight, but it also included a "body frame" concept. The height/weight charts had three ranges per SIZ, one for light frames, one for medium frames and one for heavy frames.

Hey I remember that, with rules for being overweight and gaining (Con or Str? can't remember) or underweight and gaining Dex.

POW will become ISHO (keeping the Jorune stat name). As I said, some (if not

all) creatures, native and alien, on Jorune are sensitive to only certain Colors.

So, the idea of having POW represent both Isho and Color, and allowing PCs

to swap points between the two, does not fit with what I am conceptualizing.

Are you intending to roll/generate ISHO and each colour then?

For myself I'd roll/generate once and then swap (maybe rather than between POW/ISHO and Colour between Colour scores - each of which starts at same score as POW/ISHO?)

Although if you are using SBI-III as a base then following my recent experiments with randomising everything I'm quite tempted by the idea of a bunch of colour rolls as well.

Al

[vagabond]

Hey I remember that, with rules for being overweight and gaining (Con or Str? can't remember) or underweight and gaining Dex.

Also, it was used for initial chargen - the various races had different frames.

Are you intending to roll/generate ISHO and each colour then?

For myself I'd roll/generate once and then swap (maybe rather than between POW/ISHO and Colour between Colour scores - each of which starts at same score as POW/ISHO?)

Nope - COL(or) and ISHO are chargen time stats, rolled once. ISHO will

be used to derive Isho Points just like POW is used to derive Magic Points.

Different races will have modifiers. Also, ISHO will determine Max Isho.

COL(or) will be used to determine initial Moon Skill ranks, again, with some

racial modifiers. Basically, the same principle as found in Jorune 3E. For

example, a human with a COL of 15 would have 75 points to spend on Moon

Skills, but a Muadra with a COL of 15 would have 150 points to spend on

Moon Skills. And, a Crugar with a COL of 15 would also have 75 points to

spend on Moon Skills, all of which would probably wind up in Desti.

Ian

[Merak Gren]

I'm not adverse to adding a stat or two to a BRP Jorune game. After all, Colour is something not covered in any other genre.

As an aside, are you on Face book? There is a Jorune group called Shambo in the Shenters run by Clawcarver who was also looking at a BRP conversion. Not too advanced, but another Jorune resource.

Cheers

Damon

[ClawCarver]

Cheers for the shout, Damon. I started Shambo In The Shenters after I joined Facebook and could find no Jorune presence there. Just my little stab at keeping the race memory of Jorune alive!

I did indeed start a thread about BRP conversion. All contributions are welcome, naturally. No harm in having different discussions (or even replicating the same discussions) in different forums. Equally, I'd be quite happy if people just wanted to post "new monsters" or dyshas, etc. Or even essays on the social life of trarch. (I might actually be working on that one myself, he he.)

Back to the topic at hand. I'm still not sure about Colour, you know. After 23 years of reading/playing/tinkering with Skyrealms of Jorune, I confess I'm still not sure exactly what it is. "Purity of isho"? Eh? Meaning? The fact that it is, by definition, a quality of another attribute (Isho) seems to me to make it, in game terms, inelegant and surplus to requirements. After all, we don't have (or want) attributes representing "purity of strength" or "flexibility of intelligence" or whatever.

[NickMiddleton]

...I'm still not sure about Colour, you know. After 23 years of reading/playing/tinkering with Skyrealms of Jorune, I confess I'm still not sure exactly what it is. "Purity of isho"? Eh? Meaning? The fact that it is, by definition, a quality of another attribute (Isho) seems to me to make it, in game terms, inelegant and surplus to requirements. After all, we don't have (or want) attributes representing "purity of strength" or "flexibility of intelligence" or whatever.

But we do have INT and POW, which both describe different aspects of a personality / mind; and STR, CON, SIZ & DEX all describe different attributes of the same physical organism.

I've always felt that Colour is central to any adaptation of Jorune's "magic" system precisely because it's what makes it distinctive, that it has both a quantitate measure (Isho / Isho points) AND a qualitative measure (Colour / Moon skills) of the supernatural...

Cheers,

Nick

[vagabond]

Well, a brief update.

I have been doing some work over the weekend, trying to work out a

decent system for replacing the SIZ stat with a SIZ modifier. So far,

so good. I have some preliminary modifiers worked out for Humans, Muadra,

Boccord, and Bronth, which should allow me to extrapolate the rest. I will

be working on Ramian (I already have a guess), Corastin and Croid. Once I

get all of the intelligent races down, I will do some back of the hand calcs

to see how the "non-intelligent" creatures work out. Then, I need to actually

decide how best to use the modifiers for HP, Attack bonus, Defense bonus,

Damage bonus, etc. For those that are curious, I am looking at STR and

listed heights of the races, then doing some factoring/conversion to see

what multiplier is needed to achieve the listed weight. Again, the numbers

look good so far, and seem to be somewhat consistent with the modifiers

from Jorune. Oh, and Bronth, Corastin and Croid are going to be quite strong -

as high as the 30's ...

Basically, once that is done, I should be able to get the core chargen/race

info out, as well as preliminary combat. Isho will be tackled once I am happy

with chargen and combat.

As far as Color - as Nick says, there are good reasons to keep it as an

independent stat. While I can remove some of the necessity of it for

simplification, the fact that Color represents Isho purity and is used

independently to determine Moon skills, which as I noted before, for some

races/creatures, raw Isho may be significant, but being able to manipulate

it could be very narrow (Crugar and Lightning Strike/Desti). I had thought

about just using Isho, and possibly making Color skills and Isho points

somewhat mutually exclusive, but in the end, it made more sense to me

to keep them separate. This will probably become more obvious to you when

I finish up my Isho rules: how I use the skills, and how I deal with the

specialization of Moon skills for some races, and deal with secondary and

possible tertiary specializations for the more Isho fluent races.

Another reason for getting rid of SIZ as a stat (not just because of the

mechanics issues raised on this forum prior) is, in addition to adding Color

as a stat, I am still debating on using the optional EDU stat as well. Jorune

used a separate EDU stat, and I am beginning to see its usefulness. So,

since I may be adding two stats, dropping one keeps the stat block down

some. I am also leaning towards CHA instead of APP. The former is more

useful as far as Drennship and the various Jorune racial relations go.

There is a really good thread on RPG.net - [Let's read]Skyrealms of Jorune,

3rd Edition:

[Let's Read] Skyrealms of Jorune, 3rd Edition - RPGnet Forums

Finally, I am still ambivalent about joining Facebook for a number of reasons.

But, I might have to to see what CC has done already. Need to reexamine

Nick's and Erick Bouchard's conversions as well.

Anyway, enough for now - it was going to be a brief update after all

Ian

P.S. One other side effect of this whole SIZ modifier/STR effort - I may actually get up the nerve to stat

out the Lamorri You know, just in case there are still some alive on Jorune ...

Edited July 6, 2009 by vagabond

[ClawCarver]

I've always felt that Colour is central to any adaptation of Jorune's "magic" system precisely because it's what makes it distinctive, that it has both a quantitate measure (Isho / Isho points) AND a qualitative measure (Colour / Moon skills) of the supernatural...

Well, distinctive isn't always great. (Just ask Joseph Merrick!) And doesn't it strike you as odd to represent a "qualitative measure" in quantitative terms (i.e. as a numerical stat)? Don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating jettisoning the notion of Colour altogether. (Well, not yet.) I'm just not very happy with it being a primary attribute.

In contrast, I'm quite comfortable with SIZ as a stat. Quirky though it is, SIZ for me is as much a hallmark of the BRP system as percentile skill rolls.

Jorune used a separate EDU stat, and I am beginning to see its usefulness. So, since I may be adding two stats, dropping one keeps the stat block down some. I am also leaning towards CHA instead of APP. The former is more useful as far as Drennship and the various Jorune racial relations go.

Here I tend to agree. CHA and APP are pretty much interchangeable, but CHA sounds better, and is probably more applicable in a multi-species culture. To my mind, interaction is the most important skill set for roleplaying on Jorune. In my own latest rough draft for a BRP Jorune (JoruneQuest, anyone?) character sheet, the Communication Skills section includes three Etiquette skills (Caji, Military, and Thriddle Madness) and Interaction (but not Etiquette) skills for each of the twenty sentient races/species, as well as Bargain, Fast Talk, etc. The fact that the interaction skills are as numerous as the knowledge skills makes it look like Jorune to me.

I have also retained EDU, partly because Jorune (or Burdoth, at any rate) with its great libraries feels to me like a culture that values academia, and also because I've always liked the old Call Of Cthulhu thing of a character speaking her own language at INTx5% and reading/writing it at EDUx5%. I'm toying with using the CoC system for skill determination, whereby a character gets EDU x a multiplier (15?) to spend on professional/occupational skills and INT x a smaller multiplier (5?) to buy supplementary skills.

Finally, I am still ambivalent about joining Facebook for a number of reasons. But, I might have to to see what CC has done already. Need to reexamine Nick's and Erick Bouchard's conversions as well.

I've been on Facebook for two years, and I'm still ambivalent about it! The truth is, over a period of far too many years I've done little serious work on conversion and a great deal of tinkering and fiddling and changing my mind about things. However, this thread and the one on RPG.net already mentioned seem to have sparked a small but most welcome upsurge of interest in all things Jorune, including the prospect of a BRP version, and my own enthusiasm has certainly been rekindled. As for the Facebook group, the name "Shambo In The Shenters" was one I had in mind for a Jorune fanzine back in the '90s. What with one thing and another, I never got around to doing the damn thing, but I hope the group can become an open online equivalent. All are welcome. Bring your own rusper.

Alan

[NickMiddleton]

Well, distinctive isn't always great. (Just ask Joseph Merrick!) And doesn't it strike you as odd to represent a "qualitative measure" in quantitative terms (i.e. as a numerical stat)?

Not really - given how imprecisely and poorly ALL RPG stats map to real world qualities (so DEX is speed of reactions, except when it's hand eye co-ordination... except when it's proprioreception: because of course someone with a noticeable deficiency or capability in one of those areas is ALWAYS as strong or deficient in the others as well...).

And if we reduce Jorune's dyshas / ishos to simply BRP Sorcery (hyperbole I know) with the names changed, it would for me rob the setting of a unique feature - isho is central to Jorune as a setting, even for the races that don't use it. It's played a crucial role in the history of BOTH waves of invasion / colonisation and their aftermaths, it still intrudes into the daily lives of every living creature on the planet. And it needs to be handled in a way that reflects that and preserves its distinctive character.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not advocating jettisoning the notion of Colour altogether. (Well, not yet.) I'm just not very happy with it being a primary attribute.

Personally I'd dump SIZ, INT and EDU before I chose NOT to make Colour a primary attribute alongside Isho (POW renamed).

Nick

[vagabond]

Hi Alan,

Couldn't find the FB group. The search came up empty.

Anyway, I prefer the old INT/POW separation for Sorcery - raw untrained

power (high POW, low INT), methodically researched but less innate

capability (high INT, low POW), and balanced sorcerors. The same holds

for Jorune - Crugar can have high raw ability (high ISHO), but can only

use Desti (low COL), and the same holds for other Dysha using races and

creatures, Jorune native and alien alike, but Muadra and Shantha can be high in

both. And, Boccord may have better COL, but lower ISHO, because while they

understand Isho better, and can manipulate it somewhat, they don't have high

reserves of power.

And yes, all of the Etiquette and Interaction skills are a must, which is why I

lean towards CHA instead of APP. And, the use of EDU to grab skills, decipher

old tech manuals, etc.

The SIZ modifier for me will get rid of some of the quirkiness, but still demonstrate

that SIZ does matter You will definitely feel it more if a Corastin whacks

you. And, that is how Jorune deals with it as well. I didn't really like how

Jorune uses STR to differentiate the strength within a species, and then

uses a combo of size and strength modifiers to represent the difference

between the races. Hence, in Jorune, while a Bronth may only get a +4 to

STR, in my rules, a Bronth may have a STR as high as 36.

Oh, and yes, Nick - POW will become ISHO.

Ian

[ClawCarver]

Couldn't find the FB group. The search came up empty.

There is something very odd about Facebook's search function. Anyway, the group is here:

Shambo In The Shenters: A Skyrealms Of Jorune Group | Facebook

Naturally, I agree that POW=ISH (Three letters for stats, please! That's the First Law of Fantasy Roleplaying! )

[vagabond]

There is something very odd about Facebook's search function. Anyway, the group is here:

Shambo In The Shenters: A Skyrealms Of Jorune Group | Facebook

Naturally, I agree that POW=ISH (Three letters for stats, please! That's the First Law of Fantasy Roleplaying! )

Nah, I will stick with ISHO. ISH is too, well, ...ish. I have to make an exception,

but only this time.

Ian

[vagabond]

BTW, Miles has given me the official OK to actually put my conversion

online, and include his artwork if I so desire. Wow, I could almost make

it look professional

Just waiting on Andrew's permission ...

Ian