Fatigue...

[Atgxtg]

[quote=Nightshade;3535]Ah, I see. You were stuck managing everyone else's bookkeeping too. That explains a lot. [q/uote]

Not everyone's, but close enough. In the same light, ONE guy bought a copy of the RQ3 rules, and it helped immensely. A lot of the reasons why RQ was considered "tough to learn" and D&D was considered "easy" had to do with the fact that when we played AD&D everybody had their own rulebooks, but when we played RQ we all had to share one set.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Well, honestly, most non-gritty spy games don't typically need to deal with encumberance at all, so I get your point.

Even the gritty ones usualy don't. The thing that probably needed the most bookkeeping was how much ammo people had left.

THe spy genre benefits from the fact that since the PCs have to keep a low profile, at least some of the time, walking around in Class IV body armor and toting LAW rockets is counterproductive. Besides, unlike a fantasy world, most of the timPCs can stop into a local store and pick up the extra coil of rope, flashlight, rode flares, Swiss army knife, lethaman, the almighty duct tape or what not.

With the exception of specialized gear (it sucks to loose the watch with the built in gieger counter), the only time equipment and encumbrance factor in is when people get cut off somewhere in the wilderness.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Some SF games too; any game where the presence or lack of gear can make a significant difference in your chance of success risks this. Especially if long travel without vehicles or mounts is possible.

Yeah, space without a vacc suit, sucks.
Basically it boils down to the "alone in a hostile environment" situation. The type of RPG is really just a variation on that theme. Since the modern world has rapid travel and fewer isolated spots, the theme isn't run as often. Likewise you don't get as many exploration or encountering new beings stories in modern day games.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

No, if it fits with your personal experience in that context, I'm willing to take it at least provisionally. That question was more in the light of "why do you think this?" than "Show me."

Okay. I would think that to some extent it would fit in with other peoples personal experience too. Even things like a fever or bad toothache have affected my stamina.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Not everyone's, but close enough. In the same light, ONE guy bought a copy of the RQ3 rules, and it helped immensely. A lot of the reasons why RQ was considered "tough to learn" and D&D was considered "easy" had to do with the fact that when we played AD&D everybody had their own rulebooks, but when we played RQ we all had to share one set.

Well, no wonder then. Other than one specific player who's been chronically poor over his whole life, we pretty much took it as a given that once you played in a game for any length of time you were going to have at least the basic rules.

Even the gritty ones usualy don't. The thing that probably needed the most bookkeeping was how much ammo people had left.

You can run into issues with the gritty ones because they sometimes shade into commando games, so how much gear people could haul in those situations sometimes mattered, especially if the characters were freelance or quasi-freelance and thus controlled their own equipment load-outs.

With the exception of specialized gear (it sucks to loose the watch with the built in gieger counter), the only time equipment and encumbrance factor in is when people get cut off somewhere in the wilderness.

That can come up quite a bit in the above games, though.

Okay. I would think that to some extent it would fit in with other peoples personal experience too. Even things like a fever or bad toothache have affected my stamina.

I wouldn't have argued regarding illness, but on the occasions when I've been injured, even in ongoing pain I didn't notice this problem (at least immediately; it can come up over time just because such things interfere with your ability to rest, but that's not an immediate effect). In fact, in my 20's, this sort of thing came up several times when I was hiking and would have thought I would have noticed it. But ancedotal evidence is the weakest kind, so...

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

No it doesn't.

It's a stylistic difference. Sort of what I was referring to about the difference in eras. Back with RQ was written, everything was spelled out in clear, consistent terms. Spells lasted exactly so many turns, fatigue penalties were X% and so forth. Now a lot of gamers take a more open approach. For instance, I'd be more inclined to have spells with a duration last for a "scene" rather than X minutes and so on. It greatly simplifies play, with little to no downside.

I'm not so convinced. While I'm not intrinsically hostile to that sort of structure in some games, I think it works better when there's a stylistic bias in the rules toward the dramatic and abstract than in something like RQ, which is biased toward the concrete.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

I'm not so convinced. While I'm not intrinsically hostile to that sort of structure in some games, I think it works better when there's a stylistic bias in the rules toward the dramatic and abstract than in something like RQ, which is biased toward the concrete.

Agreed. RMS has played some HeroQuest, so I think that sort of approach is second nature to him now.


HQ "ruined" him for normal gaming.

Personally, I liked the way Ars Magica handled durations, putting then in terms that were easily measured by people without timepieces (whats a minute without a clock?) like Sun (works until sunrise or sunset). Makes magic seem less scientific and more arcane.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Well, no wonder then. Other than one specific player who's been chronically poor over his whole life, we pretty much took it as a given that once you played in a game for any length of time you were going to have at least the basic rules.

I'm envious. Years ago, I had to twist arms to get most of my group to chip in $2 each to buy a new battle mat. Most people didn't buy the rules, and all this came up in the late 90s when I was claiming that CCGs were killing RPGs. I had one guy who LOVED Pendragon, When Chaosium stopped supported Pendragon to produced a CCG, and he asked why, I pointed out that had never bought a single book for Pendragon, yet had spent hundred of dollars on Magic cards.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

You can run into issues with the gritty ones because they sometimes shade into commando games, so how much gear people could haul in those situations sometimes mattered, especially if the characters were freelance or quasi-freelance and thus controlled their own equipment load-outs.

We are on the same page here. Every one in awhile in Bond, it would become important. Typically when we got to the "storming the bad guys fortress" part of an adventure. Lugging around a backpack full of C4 to blow down the steel doors tends to limit how many guns, grenades and other goodies you can take along. Still, it isn't as common as in fantansy RPGs where the players are usually carrying everything they own on their backs.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

I wouldn't have argued regarding illness, but on the occasions when I've been injured, even in ongoing pain I didn't notice this problem (at least immediately; it can come up over time just because such things interfere with your ability to rest, but that's not an immediate effect). In fact, in my 20's, this sort of thing came up several times when I was hiking and would have thought I would have noticed it. But ancedotal evidence is the weakest kind, so...

Yup. I've done that too. Often I was fine until I noticed the injury, and THEN it started to hurt. Sort of like "Oh crap, I'm injured. That should hurt. Wait, now it does."

Its that death spiral thingie. In the short term it takes something really nasty to take you out. If you are too stubborn or too stupid to notice or care, it makes you just that much tougher. That is why animals often fight on after being severely injured. They are just to dumb to lie down and die. People on the other hand see the injury go "Oh no, I'm dying" and give up. Sort of like Wyle E. Coyote in the old cartoons. Just don't look down.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Personally, I liked the way Ars Magica handled durations, putting then in terms that were easily measured by people without timepieces (whats a minute without a clock?) like Sun (works until sunrise or sunset). Makes magic seem less scientific and more arcane.

Well, in the end, most units of measurement are there for the convenience of the players, not the characters.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

I'm envious. Years ago, I had to twist arms to get most of my group to chip in $2 each to buy a new battle mat. Most people didn't buy the rules, and all this came up in the late 90s when I was claiming that CCGs were killing RPGs. I had one guy who LOVED Pendragon, When Chaosium stopped supported Pendragon to produced a CCG, and he asked why, I pointed out that had never bought a single book for Pendragon, yet had spent hundred of dollars on Magic cards.

Well, it probably didn't hurt that throughout most of my gaming career, I've probably been one of the lowest budget people in my gaming group; if I could afford to buy the damned books, it wasn't going to make much sense for other people to balk.

We are on the same page here. Every one in awhile in Bond, it would become important. Typically when we got to the "storming the bad guys fortress" part of an adventure. Lugging around a backpack full of C4 to blow down the steel doors tends to limit how many guns, grenades and other goodies you can take along. Still, it isn't as common as in fantansy RPGs where the players are usually carrying everything they own on their backs.

True. Modern transportation is a bit more forgiving in that regard. Its probably not a coincidence that the second most common place I've seen this be a real issue is post-holocaust games.

Yup. I've done that too. Often I was fine until I noticed the injury, and THEN it started to hurt. Sort of like "Oh crap, I'm injured. That should hurt. Wait, now it does."

Well, some of it was that. But in some cases (such as when I fell down a flight of steps and bruised the living hell out of my thigh when I was in my twenties) I was in all kinds of pain and at least some impairment; it just didn't immediately seem to fatigue me more.

Its that death spiral thingie. In the short term it takes something really nasty to take you out. If you are too stubborn or too stupid to notice or care, it makes you just that much tougher. That is why animals often fight on after being severely injured. They are just to dumb to lie down and die. People on the other hand see the injury go "Oh no, I'm dying" and give up. Sort of like Wyle E. Coyote in the old cartoons. Just don't look down.

Had a really--amusing--version of one of those once. I got bit by a sidewinder while hiking, and just thought I'd poked myself with a sharp branch while working through some brush. Didn't realize the degree of the problem until I got home and noticed my bloody sock. I was also a little feverish, but just wrote that off to the heat (this was in Arizona). Good thing sidewinders don't carry a particularly big load of venom as pit vipers go, and that I seem to be a bit more tolerant to it than typical...

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Well, in the end, most units of measurement are there for the convenience of the players, not the characters.

Yup. But by going with less spefic measurements, it can make bookkeeping and running easier. For instance, is most battle magic spells lasted for "around" five minutes rather than 5 minutes, you can wing the time keeping. That why some games use terms like "last for the duration of the scene". That way if a spell is up, it can be considered up until the situation has changed.

In many cases such rules can mitigate some of the lethality of an RPG. Like is people don't bleed to death right away, but "after the fight" then they are more likely to last around long enough to get first aid.

It makes the game a little more forgiving and easier to play without making major changes to the rules.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Well, it probably didn't hurt that throughout most of my gaming career, I've probably been one of the lowest budget people in my gaming group; if I could afford to buy the damned books, it wasn't going to make much sense for other people to balk.

I know the feeling. One reason why I got ticked off at that group was the most of them were makeng two to three times what I was making at the time. And I was the only one with any sort of higher education.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

True. Modern transportation is a bit more forgiving in that regard. Its probably not a coincidence that the second most common place I've seen this be a real issue is post-holocaust games.

Like I said, "Alone in a hostile environment". Same with ammo or water, quantity isn't an issue until you could run out.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Well, some of it was that. But in some cases (such as when I fell down a flight of steps and bruised the living hell out of my thigh when I was in my twenties) I was in all kinds of pain and at least some impairment; it just didn't immediately seem to fatigue me more.

I think that the adrenaline kicking in. I had to take ephedrine (adrenaline) for astha, and can personally attest that even if I was sick and tired, once the shot went through my bloodstream, I didn't feel tired. In fact, I felt panicked, and it took an effort to lie still instead of running around the room.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Had a really--amusing--version of one of those once. I got bit by a sidewinder while hiking, and just thought I'd poked myself with a sharp branch while working through some brush. Didn't realize the degree of the problem until I got home and noticed my bloody sock. I was also a little feverish, but just wrote that off to the heat (this was in Arizona). Good thing sidewinders don't carry a particularly big load of venom as pit vipers go, and that I seem to be a bit more tolerant to it than typical...

Good thing that sidewinders don't carry neurotoxins instead of hemotoxins!

Also, with snakes they don't inject a constituent amount of venom. From what I've read, about one third of the time they inject a "normal dose", another third of the time they inject little to no venom at all, and the final (pun! pun!) third of the time they dump all they've got.

From what I've read, the mortality rate from snakes carrying hemotoxins is fairly low, generally less than 35% without treatment. Less than 1% with anti-venom.

Nerotoxins are worse. Not so much because the poison is more deadly, but because it is faster acting AND impairs the nervous system, giving you less time to react and causing less localized damage.

This nature lesson was brought to you by Empire of the Wyrms Friends.

[RMS]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

That's got just about nothing to do with what the rules actually said to do, though. In fact, the rules refered to the duration of spirit magic both in terms of real time and melee rounds.

Sure it does. IMO the rules are very clear: Personal/Battle/Spirit Magic lasts a while, Divine/Rune Magic lasts a lot longer (and has a much longer range), and Sorcery lasts for however long it was boosted too. Yes, the rules give specific numbers because some people need that kind of detail, but I don't so I don't use it. I interpret to roughy 5 minutes (or two minutes in RQII) or 15 minutes, but I'm not about to waste time/energy actually tracking it. If I want to do accounting I balance my check book or something....not spend my fun time doing that.

There's no doubt that I'm very happy to read between the lines and go for the spirit of the rules (as I interpret them) rather than take them literally. It's an RPG so I never felt that need. If I play a war game, sure, but not for an RPG.

That'd never fly, locally. Consistency of rules is considered a virtue around here, and things like the GM having to fake it are considered an unfortunate occasional necessity. And we're a pretty big bunch of grognards (the average age in the hobby is probably 20 years at this point).

I've never had a single complaint about my GMing, and frankly I doubt most people would even understand what I'm winging and not, if I choose not to tell them. However, if I get someone who's more interested in rules than having fun playing an RPG I have absolutely no problem throwing them to the curb: BTDT. I have zero tolerance about rules lawyering, questioning rulings, etc. Sounds like a young group!

There was a period with some of the very early games where you had little choice; OD&D or even original Traveller were so sketchy in spots that you were completely on your own if you hit something unusual, but there's a reason we moved away from games like that.

I've never seen a game that's tight enough that it didn't need winging on a regular basis. I'd probably be bored stiff as a GM if my players weren't constantly trying to do things not specificly adjacated by the rules. One of the things I love about BRP/RQ is how easy this is to do because the mechanics are so transparent and logical.

I have to admit that's--boggling. 70 RQ characters, even most of the cookie-cutter--wow.

My longest running campaign did have a couple of very big battles, but these were involving hundreds and then thousands of people, lead by the PCs. Obviously, I wasn't going to use RQ. I ended up using a homebrew fantasy war game, but it broke out into individual RQ combats with PCs or important NPCs (run by a player) that had direct affects on the battle field, and stretched into the heroplane. It lasted for several sessions as we had three separate encounters before the finale in Pavis where the PC's army forced the Lunars out of Prax.