Fatigue...

[RMS]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

I'm not so convinced. While I'm not intrinsically hostile to that sort of structure in some games, I think it works better when there's a stylistic bias in the rules toward the dramatic and abstract than in something like RQ, which is biased toward the concrete.

The irony here is that it's only online that I've run into people who are longtime RQ/BRP players that have such a hyper-literal take on things. My experience "in the real world", as it were, is that most RQ/BRP players tend to play loose and free with things, just like I'm describing. The two biggest pluses for BRP that I constantly hear (in person and on line) is that it "fades into the background" and it's easy to houserule on the fly without breaking anything. Both of those fit my playstyle much more than what you describe. I'm not doing anything that's not quite common and haven't upset anyone or caught them off guard with my style.

I would argue that it's style too. What you describe is similar to using a battlemat with measured distances. Whereas what I do is draw up a map and describe things as rough distances. In fact, I'd argue that how I handle both is much more "realistic" as it provides the fog of war that's going to be missing when players know exactly when things are going up or down, exactly if someone is in range or not, etc.

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Agreed. RMS has played some HeroQuest, so I think that sort of approach is second nature to him now.

HQ "ruined" him for normal gaming.

Apparently, I was ruined for "normal" from the beginning. I remember reading in D&D, T&T, and RQ II how the rules were open for interpretation and that the GM could bend them to make sense, so I've just always done that. I'm completely mystified by people believe there's something sacred about the rules as written. Plus, I'm definitetly an immersionist, so I'm after getting the feel of the world first, so always am willing to bend, or break, the rules to fit my vision of the world....and never willing to go the other way. To me world consistency >> rules.

Personally, I liked the way Ars Magica handled durations, putting then in terms that were easily measured by people without timepieces (whats a minute without a clock?) like Sun (works until sunrise or sunset). Makes magic seem less scientific and more arcane.

Exactly my point. Magic shouldn't work to a time piece. It should work for some rough amount of time, but never be 100% dependable IMO. Plus RQ actually supports me a bit here: magic is specified for X rounds, but rounds aren't a set amount of time (they're roughly 12 seconds, but not exact).

Still, my main reason for doing what I do is simply because I'm not willing to do the accounting. It's just like the fatigue system. It's not terrible, but not worth my time/effort.

[Atgxtg]

One reason why I like the give & take with various people on-line is that after a bit you can get a read on them, and where they are coming from/style of play. So I could see RMS going with a looser interpretation of things based on some of his posts over at the MRQ board.

Based on some of Nightshade's threads on this site, I believe you two have very different gaming styles.

I can sort of see both sides in this. On the one hand I'm a big fan of the rules adapting to the setting rather than the reverse, but on the other would not want to play in a campaign where the GM stopped/rewrote/or autofailed my actions because they didn't fit his story. As a player, I've played through both situations and didn't like either.

Of course, every style is open to abuse, and each has it own strength and pitfalls. Chances are both of you can bring up the various weakness of each other's approach. All will probably be valid, too, depending on just who is running and playing.

But I suspect neither of you will see "eye to eye" on this issue.

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

I still think in groups where it _was_ relevant, it probably just got forgotten a lot of the time (and I'm really suprised by how fast some people's combats went; at the low end, people could spend a lot of time just flailing around locally (after all, when you only have 30%, you're only going to hit one round in three; and even if they don't parry, if anyone's got any armor at all its not that likely a single hit will put them down), and at the higher end there was usually enough healing and protective magic to cause things to take a little while. I rarely saw an RQ fight of any account over in less than 10-15 rounds, and some went noticeably longer.

Most of ours were VERY short because:
- of low armor at the beginning.
- of high damage at higher levels
even with healing magic. It is so easy to disrupt somebody that tries to heal himself while engaged that it is almost impossible. The big healing starts after the fight.

And for long duration, don't forget that, according to the rules, your character collapse when he reaches negative (STR+CON). It is impossible to have very long fights.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Well, no wonder then. Other than one specific player who's been chronically poor over his whole life, we pretty much took it as a given that once you played in a game for any length of time you were going to have at least the basic rules.
...

I can remember a player who never manage to grasp the rules for casting a spirit magic spell, even after 2 years of play. As a player, I had to help the GM and relieve him of managing some of the players.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Kloster

And for long duration, don't forget that, according to the rules, your character collapse when he reaches negative (STR+CON). It is impossible to have very long fights.

Not entirely true. Character could rest and regain some FPs. So, depending on the situation, it could be possible for some characters to stop and rest for a couple of rounds before continuing. If some side had a numerical advantage and the other controlled a "bottleneck" such as a doorway, you could indeed have some very long fights, with different character taking turns guarding a doorway.

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Not entirely true. Character could rest and regain some FPs. So, depending on the situation, it could be possible for some characters to stop and rest for a couple of rounds before continuing. If some side had a numerical advantage and the other controlled a "bottleneck" such as a doorway, you could indeed have some very long fights, with different character taking turns guarding a doorway.

This is exactly what I described for our only long fight: People on the verge of collapse, taking breath 1 or 2 MR at a time to regain a few FP and continue fighting.

So yes, it is possible, but I saw that once in 24 years of RQ.

Most of the fight I saw were less than 10 MR.
A few were between 10 and 20 (perhaps 1 in 10).
1 was above 20 MR (and far above, perhaps 50, I don't remember exactly).


Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Kloster

This is exactly what I described for our only long fight: People on the verge of collapse, taking breath 1 or 2 MR at a time to regain a few FP and continue fighting.

So yes, it is possible, but I saw that once in 24 years of RQ.

Most of the fight I saw were less than 10 MR.
A few were between 10 and 20 (perhaps 1 in 10).
1 was above 20 MR (and far above, perhaps 50, I don't remember exactly).

That matches up fairly closely to my experiences with RQ3, too. Most fights were short and brutal, and smart players tired to keep around 5-10FP to avoid fatigue penalties. One guy figured out that one of the advantages of Spells like Strength and Vigor in a battle was the extra FP points. Vigor 3 and you were usually convered for the battle.

Most of my long battles in RQ3 were along the lines of skirmishes and sitautions where one side had a defible position and the attackers would start an attack, pick off a couple of guards, then fall back behind cover and rest/regroup.

In my eperience, if someone was constantly deep into the negative FPs he was usally just carrying around too much crap to fight. Or he had really poor stats. We had one guy with a 5 STR and 7 CON once. He usually had FP problems (he was the guy who figured out the Vigor 3 trick).

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

...
Most of my long battles in RQ3 were along the lines of skirmishes and sitautions where one side had a defible position and the attackers would start an attack, pick off a couple of guards, then fall back behind cover and rest/regroup.
...

Those mostly are the 10 to 20 MR.
And some of them are really several shorter fights, because between the very short engagements, fatigue is recovered and spell are over (at least for spirit).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

...
One guy figured out that one of the advantages of Spells like Strength and Vigor in a battle was the extra FP points. Vigor 3 and you were usually convered for the battle.
...

Same for us.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Enpeze]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

That matches up fairly closely to my experiences with RQ3, too. Most fights were short and brutal, and smart players tired to keep around 5-10FP to avoid fatigue penalties. One guy figured out that one of the advantages of Spells like Strength and Vigor in a battle was the extra FP points. Vigor 3 and you were usually convered for the battle.

Most of my long battles in RQ3 were along the lines of skirmishes and sitautions where one side had a defible position and the attackers would start an attack, pick off a couple of guards, then fall back behind cover and rest/regroup.

In my eperience, if someone was constantly deep into the negative FPs he was usally just carrying around too much crap to fight. Or he had really poor stats. We had one guy with a 5 STR and 7 CON once. He usually had FP problems (he was the guy who figured out the Vigor 3 trick).

Another great proof of the elegance and realism of the RQ/BRP rules.
I dont know many systems which enable combats where the participants have to rest for a few rounds before continuing the combat. Reminds me a little bit to the lengthy sword fight scene between Arnold and Brigitte in Red Sonja.