Variable Armor Points

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Joseph Paul

I can see that applying to the half-plate since it implies that half of it is missing but I see no reason for that to apply to leather armor just because it is leather. Vambraces, rerebraces, cuises and schinbalds were all made from leather at one time as well as scale and lamellar armors for the body. You could be in leather from head to foot.

Except as I recall from the description, it wasn't. Just as it isn't with most armors of any nature.

How would you rate an Age of Mail knight that had an homogenous armor of mail in all locations? None of it is any lighter than the others and there basicly aren't any areas that are unarmored. Would this end up like the Melnibonean armors with a huge plus?

No, it'd end up with a modest plus, because even if the _material_ is homogonous, the protection in practice, isn't. I'd expect it to be something like 1d4+ 2 to 3.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by soltakss

Does anyone use random armour with hit locations?

In our game, when the PCs put on a dollop of Protection, they are very hard to hurt. Random armour might be the answer to this. I doubt if they'd agree though.

I think at that point you're doing one of two things:

1. Simulating a lower level of distinction than BRP based games usually go to (they don't bother to deal with locations smaller than an arm in terms of damage effects, so why do so with armor, since that's effectively what this would do); or

2. Doing so for entirely game-play related reasons, which is harder to argue with, but I suspect there are better ways to address that end.

[badcat]

Soltakss, yes, I have done that too, usually only rolling hit location after a major wound (not a critical, I was using half total hit points as the measure for a 'critical' hit, with various effects depending on location). So the 'critical' was more like the 'special' in RQ (10%). It works fine, but as you think would likely be a hard sell. The group with which I implemented it had been together a long time and we had generated a lot of mutual trust when it came to games and housrules and such. Actually it was a houseruled version of the original 'major wound table' from Stormbringer 1, with toned down results. The whole variable armor mechanic is not as deadly as some people think, and it certainly makes running a game faster and easier, while enhancing the excitement of play during combat sequences. I think I still have the character sheet for that particular version of fantasy BRP around here somewhere.

[Jason Durall]

One aspect that variable armor "simulates" is that even if it is homogeneous across all locations, the material doesn't always protect the same against different types of weapons, or against blows delivered from different angles.

If you're head to toe in mail, even wearing a full-face mesh coif... would you rather be hit in the stomach or the head with a mace?

Plate armor is best when it's deflecting points, blades, and crushing blows, not handling them head-on.

Mail, also, is great against blades, somewhat good against points, but not terribly effective against blunt weapons. Anywhere where bone is close to flesh is more vulnerable. Against blunt weapons, the padding under the mail is more effective than the links themselves.

However, from a preferred gameplay perspective (and I think "degree of realism desired" falls under that category), I prefer variable damage rolls.

The mechanic was first introduced in Stormbringer, a game where a character can start as a blind, limbless, leprous beggar from Nadsokor, or as an assassin-noble-sorcerer from Melnibone... variable armor is a perfect extension of that.

I like the variability of the random armor protection precisely because it abstracts armor and the interaction of damage. I find that if I begin thinking that fixed-point is more "realistic", then I begin down a slippery slope into fixed armor protecting differently against different weapon types, and then it becomes more complex than I prefer.

However, I'd argue that the sheer genius of the BRP system is that one can have random armor values, or one can then use fixed point armor value with variable protection against different attack types (slashing, impaling, blunt, etc.), and the game still works.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Jason Durall

One aspect that variable armor "simulates" is that even if it is homogeneous across all locations, the material doesn't always protect the same against different types of weapons, or against blows delivered from different angles.

Variable armor as implemented in SB in no way simulates the effect of different types of weapons agianst different types of armor though - mail is just as likely to roll max protection against a mace as it is to roll minimum protection against a sword slash.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Jason Durall

One aspect that variable armor "simulates" is that even if it is homogeneous across all locations, the material doesn't always protect the same against different types of weapons, or against blows delivered from different angles.

I tend to agree with the second, but not the first, since a variable roll doesn't really pay attention to the weapon used.

However, I'd argue that the sheer genius of the BRP system is that one can have random armor values, or one can then use fixed point armor value with variable protection against different attack types (slashing, impaling, blunt, etc.), and the game still works.

The real virtue of RQ when it came out wasn't its realism (though in contrast to the only other fantasy games of the time, it felt far more realistic in a cause-and-effect sort of way) but its transparency; what was being represented was pretty clear from process. That's still one of BRP's general virtues; you're very unlikely to change a subsystem without being able to see what it means in play and whether its a good idea on game play grounds.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by badcat

Actually it was a houseruled version of the original 'major wound table' from Stormbringer 1, with toned down results.

Please tell me you left the severed nose in. Some of my fondest memories of SB come from that Major wound table, and noseless PC's. At one time we had two in the same party.

[badcat]

I definitely agree. Even when a BRP game did insert a small nod to 'realism' that involved slight additions (like the mace halving chainmail protection, in Hawkmoon) I tended to disregard it. Stormbringer 1 always brought the feeling of flashing sword booming on dented shield, all the excitement of favorite books and movies, and it still does it better than anything else I have found. And most importantly, it does it without distracting from the storytelling, which was (I thought) the whole point of rpgs. Every version of BRP does to some extent, but SB1 always has been my 'sweet spot' for rules vs. playability. With some of the wildness toned down (I didn't make players take beggars or use the Elemental Lords casually, for instance).

Books/stories that I always thought SB1 captured perfectly, besides the Elric stories of course: Conan, David Drakes' 'Dragonlord' and 'Killer', Nifft the Lean stories, Wandor, The Lost Prince, Coramonde, Sir Walter Scott stories, 'Men of Iron', the list just goes on and on. The system just helps tell the story without bogging down in details...and the variable armor system is a big part of why it does.

[badcat]

That's Jason I agree with, just so there is no confusion.

[Triff]

The variable armor points were quite different from what I expected. I would have thought the conversion would be something like this:

fixed - variable
1 - 1d2
2 - 1d4
3 - 1d6
4 - 1d8
5 - 1d10
6 - 1d12
7 - 2d6
8 - 2d6+1 / 1d6+1d8

something like that (which would actually give a higher average)

If I would add the stormbringer values, my players would fall like flies!

SGL.