Variable Armor Points

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

First edtion SB was much worse that RQ though. THe vartiable armor tened to cut the AP in half, and the major wound rule (take 1/2 you CON/HP form a single hit) made dropping people very common.

I'm not so sure; remember that prior to RQ3, armor only went from about 1-7 in RQ; and in RQ1 the impale rule was max value + rolled value. That meant that even a relatively weak impaling weapon (a self-bow, say) did an impale of 1d6+8; and RQ1 impales happened 25% of hits. So you could easily have a starting character running around in 2 points of armor who suddenly found himself taking 12 points in the head, taking off 2, and still collecting 10 from what was left. Now once you got into serious levels of Protection, that wasn't as unfortunate, but criticals happened more as you advanced, and there you could well be collecting a longspear or composite bow arrow for 1d10+12. Past your armor. If that didn't hit a limb, that was pretty much it.

Toss in the extra damage die for master quality weapons, or the massive damage bonus for demon weapons (a +5D6 damage bonus was not uncommon), and anyone who wasn't wearing demon armor wasn't long for the world.

Well, the demon weapons and armor were quite ugly, but then, you could well be talking by moderate levels in RQ1 someone with Bladesharp 4 or 5 and a damage bonus of 1D6. With the typical 1D10+1 bastardsword, that translated into 1d10+6+1d6. That might not be up to the demon blades, but it was more than sufficient to do someone in on a critical even without an impale. That didn't even get into the issue of involvement of exotic rune magic.

[Lord Twig]

Speaking of magic. I was wondering how it played with the variable armor. Does a Protection 4 (if there is such a thing in the BRP rules) still add +4 armor?

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Sorloc

But the warrior isn't exploiting the weakness; fate is.
A defender will know where his weak spots are, and try to cover them.
An attacker tries to get past that defense into the weak spot.
How to tell if he succeeds? Your skill roll.
How to tell if he hit a weak spot? Your damage roll.
How to tell if you really exploited the chink in the armor? Did you crit?

So actually, yes, RQ DOES offer the ability to target weak spots in the armor. It actually assumes that that is what you are doing, because why wouldn't you?

You don't get a 50/50 shot at hitting a weakness in the armor, you get a 5% chance.

Really, anyone who weakens armor is someone who is revealing that they don't use encumbrance rules.


It's already there; no need to reinvent the wheel.
Yes, it does tend to devolve into a contest of who gets a crit first, or who gets exhausted first, but isn't that what a combat wearing armor really is? A test of endurance?
If your dagger could penetrate a breastplate, the armorer would make thicker breastplate - and not just in places - ALL OVER! That's kind of the point of armor, Right?

THe problem is, that NO it's isn't what combat against someone wearing armor really is. Real world skill tends to win out over armor. However in BRP damage means that the warrior still isn't exploiting his advantage. The vast majority of results in BRP are "normal" hits that do "normal" damage.

What would be more realistic would be to vary the damage result based on the quality of the skill. Crit % are just so low as to make them a fluke rather than a result of skill (at least until you hit Rune Level).

But that's hard to do with D100.


One thing that BRP doesn't consider is that some hits that don't damage foe CAN affect the way he fights. A flurry of three or four non penetrating hits on the helm or breastplate usually makes a foe go defensive in real combat, rather than wait for his "turn" to attack.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

I'm not so sure; remember that prior to RQ3, armor only went from about 1-7 in RQ; and in RQ1 the impale rule was max value + rolled value. That meant that even a relatively weak impaling weapon (a self-bow, say) did an impale of 1d6+8; and RQ1 impales happened 25% of hits. So you could easily have a starting character running around in 2 points of armor who suddenly found himself taking 12 points in the head, taking off 2, and still collecting 10 from what was left. Now once you got into serious levels of Protection, that wasn't as unfortunate, but criticals happened more as you advanced, and there you could well be collecting a longspear or composite bow arrow for 1d10+12. Past your armor. If that didn't hit a limb, that was pretty much it.

I'm sure. I ran a LOT of Stormbinrger during my RQ2 days. In RQ, most 8 point hits got lessened through armor so that they didn't drop a foe. Such hits to the limbs, weren't going to be lethal, either. In SB, a 8 point hit, even after armor, usually resulted in a Major wound, taking the foe out of the fight. Plus SB had twice the crtical chance that RQ did. Plus, even if you survived a major wound, there were usually permanent effects that tended to make you easy to kill later. In Rq you didn't have to wroyy about your STR or DEX dropping below the point where you could wield your weapon effectively, or that a loss of CON could lower your hit points or result in a delayed fatality.

SB was probably the deadliest version of BRP with the exception of the Morrow Project (revised edition).

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Lord Twig

Speaking of magic. I was wondering how it played with the variable armor. Does a Protection 4 (if there is such a thing in the BRP rules) still add +4 armor?

Its only been used, to the best of my knowledge, in versions of the game that used magic systems too different from RQ for that to be a meaningful question.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

I'm sure. I ran a LOT of Stormbinrger during my RQ2 days. In RQ, most 8 point hits got lessened through armor so that they didn't drop a foe. Such hits to the limbs, weren't going to be lethal, either. In SB, a 8 point

I saw quite a few 8 point hits drop people. All you needed was a torso hit for that to take down an average character; after all, you were usually talking 3-4 point hit locations in the case of anyone but the buff, and it wasn't hard to have 3-5 points of armor.

hit, even after armor, usually resulted in a Major wound, taking the foe out of the fight. Plus SB had twice the crtical chance that RQ did. Plus, even if you survived a major wound, there were usually permanent effects that tended to make you easy to kill later. In Rq you didn't have to wroyy about your STR or DEX dropping below the point where you could wield your weapon effectively, or that a loss of CON could lower your hit points or result in a delayed fatality.

No, but you did have to deal with the potential for limb loss, which could be in practice as severe, or by the RQ3 period, blood loss.

SB was probably the deadliest version of BRP with the exception of the Morrow Project (revised edition).

Barring the demon equipment, I'm really just not seeing the huge difference here (well, that and the fact SB armor availability tended more toward the low end more frequently).

[Atgxtg]

Nightshade,

Look at it like this.
In RQ2, if you hit someone for 5 or 6 ponts, AND got past the parry, armor took off another couple of points, as did protection (fairly common in RQ2), resulting in a minor injury.

In Strombringer, once you got past the parry, the armor mght stop some of the damage (or not), and what got through might still be enough for a Major Wound, taking the foe out of the fight.

The major wounds (high damage vs low armor roll) came up a lot more often than the sever or location take out results in RQ.

Plus, with RQ, there was all sorts of magic to help protect or heal a combatant, so a disabled or even severed limb (heck even Death in some cases) was a recoverable injury. In Stormbringer there was no such option. A lost limb (thanks to amajor wound) stayed lost, since there was no "Healing 6" , and the injuried mostly relied on first aid and natural healing.


PLus SB1 had cultural stat mods that made the game even more lethal. A human with a 2D6 Damage bonus was possible. Even the max stat limit of 100 was significantly higher than RQ2's "max+min" method.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Nightshade,

Look at it like this.
In RQ2, if you hit someone for 5 or 6 ponts, AND got past the parry, armor took off another couple of points, as did protection (fairly common in RQ2), resulting in a minor injury.

But that's an issue of the presence of magic in the system, not an aspect of the combat and armor systems themselves.

And 5-6 points was fairly low in our experience; the expected damage was usually closer to 8, and that was assuming no impaling weapons were present.

In Strombringer, once you got past the parry, the armor mght stop some of the damage (or not), and what got through might still be enough for a Major Wound, taking the foe out of the fight.

On the other hand, while the roll means you could get very little protection, you could also get rather more than you got in RQ1 and 2; 6 points of armor was a fair bit, barring magic, in RQ1. In fact, it was full plate as I recall.

The major wounds (high damage vs low armor roll) came up a lot more often than the sever or location take out results in RQ.

I might believe it was more common than severs, but not than location take outs, which I usually saw multiple times in a given fight.

Plus, with RQ, there was all sorts of magic to help protect or heal a combatant, so a disabled or even severed limb (heck even Death in some cases) was a recoverable injury. In Stormbringer there was no such option. A lost limb (thanks to amajor wound) stayed lost, since there was no "Healing 6" , and the injuried mostly relied on first aid and natural healing.

I agree the magic made a difference, but that's an issue of magical availability; as I said, it doesn't have anything to do with armor or the combat system.

PLus SB1 had cultural stat mods that made the game even more lethal. A human with a 2D6 Damage bonus was possible. Even the max stat limit of 100 was significantly higher than RQ2's "max+min" method.

You obviously never encountered PC ogres, trolls and even great trolls in RQ.

[RMS]

Originally Posted by Jason Durall

The mechanic was first introduced in Stormbringer, a game where a character can start as a blind, limbless, leprous beggar from Nadsokor, or as an assassin-noble-sorcerer from Melnibone... variable armor is a perfect extension of that.

I played that beggar in a SB game. He was seriously messed up before the game even started. He survived the adventure, took his cut, and settled down to a kingly (from a beggar's POV) retirement. I enjoyed the small number of sessions with him.

I do agree that the variable armor does fit in very well with the whole take on SB 1-3....

I also played a Pan Tangian Sorcerer who I played for a long time. He became very powerful with extremely powerful demon armor and weapons. He died to a critical (01) from a lowly sailer on a ship one evening. Variable armor had nothing to do with his demise.

[RMS]

Originally Posted by Sorloc

So actually, yes, RQ DOES offer the ability to target weak spots in the armor. It actually assumes that that is what you are doing, because why wouldn't you?

I was anticipating this argument and it's fine. I don't even completely disagree with it, so won't waste time refuting any of it.

Really, anyone who weakens armor is someone who is revealing that they don't use encumbrance rules.

SB doesn't have encumbrance rules. RQ2 had excellent rules that somehow got dropped for a mess that was the RQ3 method.

It's already there; no need to reinvent the wheel.
Yes, it does tend to devolve into a contest of who gets a crit first, or who gets exhausted first, but isn't that what a combat wearing armor really is? A test of endurance?
If your dagger could penetrate a breastplate, the armorer would make thicker breastplate - and not just in places - ALL OVER! That's kind of the point of armor, Right?

Yeah, but that drags out and is extremely boring. Of course the key here is to have a warrior pumped up enough to blow through plate armor like it's not even there. My one longterm RQ character (the one time I got to play instead of GM) could easily go through a shield, plate armor, and still deal a mortal wound...unless the person on the other end had a LOT of magical protection.