Chaos!

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Could you give some examples of this, so I can get a better grasp of you line of reasoning? I'm wondering if we are talking about the same thing.

I'll give it a try, but I'm on flu meds, so I don't promise anything about my coherence.

Anthropological functions of mythical animals, like many mythological figures are often (though not always; some may just be something fanciful that someone injected at some point because it made for a cool story, since storytelling tended to interweve with religion and mythology, or the aforementioned explanation of fossils and the like) symbolic, representing something in society or religion that they are an equivelent of on a mythic level. The pheonix is a good example, as a symbol of rebirth and renewal.

But that works on a sociological/religious/psychological level. And it works in part because these myths are simply, unreal. They're essentially a high-order fiction. When looking at a world where these myths are real (and as I caveated earlier, where gods and myths are not simply supernatural projections of their people, but exist seperate from them, these creatures have an existance of their own; they don't have to have any symbolic loading, other than the fact the people involved will _ascribe_ significance to them. But then, people will ascribe significance to anything, including perfectly natural, non-mythical entities. On that level the symbolic origin is irrelevant, because it extends to everything in the world, mythic or not.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by drohem

No, I disagree.

Since you seem to do that pretty much to everything I say, and similarly tersely, I shan't let it concern me much.

[drohem]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Since you seem to do that pretty much to everything I say, and similarly tersely, I shan't let it concern me much.

hehe...that's cool. I am sorry my short answers are interpreted as being terse; they're just short and sweet.

Just because I disagree doesn't necessary mean that I am terse or hostile. It's merely a difference of viewpoint on these subjects.

I am simply not going to engage you on matters of opinion because nothing good can come of it. I state my opinion plainly, and elborate when asked or feel it necessary.

I have no antipathy for you.

Peace

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by drohem

hehe...that's cool. I am sorry my short answers are interpreted as being terse; they're just short and sweet.

Just because I disagree doesn't necessary mean that I am terse or hostile. It's merely a difference of viewpoint on these subjects.

I am simply not going to engage you on matters of opinion because nothing good can come of it. I state my opinion plainly, and elborate when asked or feel it necessary.

I have no antipathy for you.

Peace

And I'm sorry if that seemed grumpy; as I said, I'm on flu meds, and I tend to find "I disagree" with no follow-through as, well, kind of pointless; if I'm going to disagree with someone and bother to say so, I usually try to tell them why, and honestly tend to expect the same of others. That doesn't require others to feel the same way, but it does color my view of such responses.

[soltakss]

It's not a lot to do with Chaos in Glorantha, but .....

The Real World origins of various mythological creatures is irrelevant from a fantasy gaming point of view.

So what if people found dinosaur fossils and thought they were dragons?

In a factasy game, what is important is the mythological origins or the pseudo-historical origins of creatures.

In Greek Myth, Pegasus arose from Medusa's blood after she was beheaded by Perseus (I think). In Bashkort mythology, flying horses were gifts from the Sun to mighty heroes. Both are flying horses, but both have different origins. If I were playing an ancient Greek game then I'd use the Medusa-origin myth, if I played a steppe nomad game I'd use the Bashkort-origin myth.

The most important things are:
1. What they are
2. What they do
3. Where they came from

So, Griffins are hybrid lion/eagles, Pegasi are winged horses and dragons exist.

Griffins prey on livestock, Pegasi can be tamed by heroes and dragons hoard treasure and eat livestock and people.

Where they came from depends on the game setting and the myths used.

That's all I really need to know about them. Any "Real World" explanation is completely irrelevant to me.

[Enpeze]

Originally Posted by soltakss

It's not a lot to do with Chaos in Glorantha, but .....

The Real World origins of various mythological creatures is irrelevant from a fantasy gaming point of view.

So what if people found dinosaur fossils and thought they were dragons?

In a factasy game, what is important is the mythological origins or the pseudo-historical origins of creatures.

In Greek Myth, Pegasus arose from Medusa's blood after she was beheaded by Perseus (I think). In Bashkort mythology, flying horses were gifts from the Sun to mighty heroes. Both are flying horses, but both have different origins. If I were playing an ancient Greek game then I'd use the Medusa-origin myth, if I played a steppe nomad game I'd use the Bashkort-origin myth.

The most important things are:
1. What they are
2. What they do
3. Where they came from

So, Griffins are hybrid lion/eagles, Pegasi are winged horses and dragons exist.

Griffins prey on livestock, Pegasi can be tamed by heroes and dragons hoard treasure and eat livestock and people.

Where they came from depends on the game setting and the myths used.

That's all I really need to know about them. Any "Real World" explanation is completely irrelevant to me.

Well I think its practical to know more than just "can be tamed by heroes" about those creatures in your fantasy game. For example some game stats just in case the PC meet the unfriendly manticore.

There are some other points where reality and myth meet each other. Its not always clear what a mythological creature is and what not. Eg. in former times, many "mundane" animals have been given magical attributes by the people and so became a hybrid between mythological creature and real animal. So what do you do in your fantasy game? Do have rhinos magical horns or not?

In most fantasy settings, rhinos are normal animals. They dont have any magic attributes. This is because those games are viewing mundane animals of the fantasy world from a modern zoological point of view. But a few, like "ars magica" does indeed give rhinos or even geese magical abilities.

[Simlasa]

It always bugged me a bit that most all fantasy games I've seen carry the assumption that every folkloric/mythological creature in the character's culture has a 'real' objective existence in-game... and that most all the characters believed in them too.

I can't recall reading/playing an adventure where the characters go on a 'snark hunt'...

[soltakss]

Originally Posted by Enpeze

Well I think its practical to know more than just "can be tamed by heroes" about those creatures in your fantasy game. For example some game stats just in case the PC meet the unfriendly manticore.

Of course, you need stats.

I was talking about the supposed origin of the creatures and people's insistence on arguing about real world origins rather than game/setting-based origins.

If you have a creature in a game it will have a game-origin and game-stats.

Originally Posted by Enpeze

There are some other points where reality and myth meet each other. Its not always clear what a mythological creature is and what not. Eg. in former times, many "mundane" animals have been given magical attributes by the people and so became a hybrid between mythological creature and real animal. So what do you do in your fantasy game? Do have rhinos magical horns or not?

In most fantasy settings, rhinos are normal animals. They dont have any magic attributes. This is because those games are viewing mundane animals of the fantasy world from a modern zoological point of view. But a few, like "ars magica" does indeed give rhinos or even geese magical abilities.

Once again, it would depend on the setting and how you want to play it.

In Chinese medicine, rhino horn is an aphrodisiac (actually in many folk medicine traditions, anything that is long and hard is an aphrodisiac, although I can't for the life of me work out why ......) so if you used a similar medicinal tradition in your game then rhino horn might have some magical effects.

Are rhinos as magical as unicorns? Probably not. Do many creatures have magical properties? Maybe, it depends on your game.

[soltakss]

Originally Posted by Simlasa

It always bugged me a bit that most all fantasy games I've seen carry the assumption that every folkloric/mythological creature in the character's culture has a 'real' objective existence in-game... and that most all the characters believed in them too.

Well, yes and no.

Many people like meeting strange and exotic creatures in games. You can make them up or use the game setting as a base for the creatures.

If you are adventuring in Ancient Greece then why shouldn't you meet centaurs, satyrs and fauns? If you are adventuring in Scandinavia, you could meet trolls, dwarves and elves. In settings based on novels, films or TV shows, you'd expect to meet things from the base setting.

What you wouldn't necessarily expect to meet are creatures from other settings/mythologies. So, I wouldn't expect to meet a conchon in Ancient Greece or a centaur in the Aztec Empire or a shurale in Roman Britain.

Not everything needs to exist, but if you base your setting on folktales and legends, then everything that was met in those tales could conceiveably me met in your game.

Originally Posted by Simlasa

I can't recall reading/playing an adventure where the characters go on a 'snark hunt'...

But, it would be a good scenario, though, wouldn't it?

[Atgxtg]

Nightshade,

Okay, I can see what your saying now. But I don't quite agree. I don't think that the cultures that created such myths actually disntinguished between "real monster" and high order fiction (or low brow fiction). It was all a bit of a mix. For instance, the Grek gods were often viewd as more fictional characters or writers tools for parables, then as real beings, but were still offered worship.

Basically, the problem was that the mysteries of life and the world needed to be answered, and people will usually accept any answer until they are given a better one. We still do it today.


Snark Hunts,
I've done stuff like that in campaigns. I once had the group vampire hunting only to find out in the end that the "vampire" was really just a demeneted townsperson.

I've also "reverse snark hunted". My favorite CoC character was a guy who didn't believe in in the Mythos, or any of the Mythos beasts. Oddly enough, I was always lucky to be elsewhere when the monsters did show up. The one or two times he did get a glimpse of something strange, he was able to explain it off as something more natural (WoW, did you see that big bat, that just flew past the window?). The character really started to annoy the GM, since he was far more successful than the other CoC characters. His SAN wasn't dropping, his skills were improving, and he was doing just fine without any magic spells.