Chaos!

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by drohem

Oh, that's right...are you talking about The Primal Order perhaps?

I forgot that about WarpWorld. I remember that I liked that aspect of the game: god power levels were based upon mana gained through their supplicants.

Yes, that's the tact both the Primal Order and WarpWorld took; its certainly a viable approach (its also sort-of the tact Scion takes) but it doesn't seem to have much to do with what any real world religion saw as what was going on.

[Simlasa]

No... in the 'real' world it seems like it was more like the prestige/powers of the hight priests that rose and fell with the numbers of devout followers... the gods themselves seem equally and consistently inert.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Yes, that's the tact both the Primal Order and WarpWorld took; its certainly a viable approach (its also sort-of the tact Scion takes) but it doesn't seem to have much to do with what any real world religion saw as what was going on.

Yeah Primal Order. That was it.


It would be hard for any real world religion to follow that tact, since in the real world we don't have divine beings popping up and working miracles before our eyes. Any signs of divinity are, at best, debatable.

That's one problem I have accepting bliblical tales. For example, I find it hard to accept that Ramses would have been so slow on the uptake. A couple of plagues, and I would have believed in the power of Jewish God and freed them . I have thrown a going away party, tossed in some presents, and provided an escort.

If a diety goes to all the trouble or providing proof, it would be the least one could do.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Yeah Primal Order. That was it.


It would be hard for any real world religion to follow that tact, since in the real world we don't have divine beings popping up and working miracles before our eyes. Any signs of divinity are, at best, debatable.

There's nothing stopping them as seeing gods power as coming from the worship of mortals, though; but to the best of my knowledge, that doesn't seem to have been the view of any of them (you occasionally find something vaguely like it in animism, but that's not quite the same thing).

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

There's nothing stopping them as seeing gods power as coming from the worship of mortals, though; but to the best of my knowledge, that doesn't seem to have been the view of any of them (you occasionally find something vaguely like it in animism, but that's not quite the same thing).

Yup. Most real world (and most fantasy world) religions have power tricking down from on high. Few faiths work the other way. But that also mirrors most ancient societies, too. Trickle down divinity supports concepts such as the divine right of kings, and props up the entire feudal structure.

Once you accept an idea like power coming from the people you risk upsetting the entire social order. Since the religious leaders in most cultures were at the top of the social order, they had good reasons to be conservative to reactionary in their views.


There are a few religions with such concepts, but they were usually practiced among the poor lower classes, and usually were wiped out by the ruling elite.

[Aycorn]

The concept of gods getting some (not necessarily all) of their power is, I think, a pretty old fantasy trope - the idea that when men no longer believe in the gods, their power on earth will fade away. Check out the 1963 film "Jason and the Argonauts" for example.

I've read the infamous Primal Order and boiled it down to about 10-12 pages of usable rules for a campaign I would play. Basically a god has "flux," which functions a lot like POW in RQ, and gods get it in thousands of points. They have a certain amount automatically generated (just by being a god), and that amount is increased by such things as how many worshipers they have, how many priests, how many temples, etc. Thus, a popular god is more powerful than an unpopular one - o.t.o.h, a less popular god is not powerless nor does it cease to exist.

I like this for a fantasy setting. It's not "real-world," nor is it the only possible model - it works if you've got a scenario where (a) gods are real (b) they're active in the world (c) they're interested in some semi-concrete form of power.

I also think it works neatly with both the RQ and Stormbringer religion models.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Aycorn

I also think it works neatly with both the RQ and Stormbringer religion models.

Oh, don't get me wrong; so do I. I was just noting it didn't have much to do with any real-world past religion that I knew of.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Oh, don't get me wrong; so do I. I was just noting it didn't have much to do with any real-world past religion that I knew of.

Well, if it did work that way, what real world god would admit it? You've read Warp World.

[Aycorn]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Oh, don't get me wrong; so do I. I was just noting it didn't have much to do with any real-world past religion that I knew of.

Oh, I know. My response was terse, as I'm at work and supposed to be working .

I like The Primal O model, plus the RQ model plus the Stormbringer "elan" model married together, because they give an in-game rationale for the whole thing - gods get something out of having more worshippers, temples built to them, etc (Primal O); worshippers get something being devout and carrying out the rituals (magic, divine intervention) and worshippers get an improved chance at divine intervention by doing things that please their deity and potentially increase their deity's power (elan).

But there are other potential models. What if the gods aren't real? What if they're just power sources and people only imagine them to have faces/personalities? What if they're something else entirely?

The Mythopoet's Manual helped me understand real-world religions (ancient and modern), but it also helped me understand that for the kind of model of religion I'm talking about above - where, for example, Zeus might indeed pop up and throw off a few lightning bolts - there is no real-world example. So, you gotta turn back to your imagination to figure how such a religion works in your imaginary world.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Well, if it did work that way, what real world god would admit it? You've read Warp World.

One who considered religion more or less a business, where its about convincing the customer he'll get the most from dealing with that god.