Brainstorming spaceship design

[Atgxtg]

I was wondering. For BRP Spaceships, do we want to move ships on a battleboard like with characters, or use a more abstract system, where we just track range bands, and ships have a list of maneuvers they can perform?

Both options have advantages.

The first would be more BRPish, but the second would allow for a lot of neat tactics and maneuvers [close, turn about, evasive maneuvering, strafing run,etc.,etc] and would greatly simplify space movement and range calculations ("Okay, I'm 2 zones away from the alien cruiser, that's short range for the particle accelerators and medium range for the main overkill cannon.").

[frogspawner]

There's an old, interesting and very simple game of spaceship combat called Warp War (see Warp War | BoardGameGeek), which incorporated ship design. If you're going to create a system, you could do worse than making it compatible with that.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by frogspawner

There's an old, interesting and very simple game of spaceship combat called Warp War (see Warp War | BoardGameGeek), which incorporated ship design. If you're going to create a system, you could do worse than making it compatible with that.

What are Warp War's good bits? There are quite a few simple space combat games out there. What War War have to offer that makes it you first choice for our BRP homebrew? Not disagreeing with you, just curious about Warp War.


BTW, How do you look at a .gbx file? I wanted to look over the game and DL'd it, but don't know how to read it.

[soltakss]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

What are Warp War's good bits? There are quite a few simple space combat games out there. What War War have to offer that makes it you first choice for our BRP homebrew? Not disagreeing with you, just curious about Warp War.


BTW, How do you look at a .gbx file? I wanted to look over the game and DL'd it, but don't know how to read it.

.gbx files are Game Boxes from Cyberboard. Go to the Cyberboard website CyberBoard or the download site CyberBoardfor an excellent program to model board games. I draw all my maps in Cyberboard now.

[soltakss]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

I was wondering. For BRP Spaceships, do we want to move ships on a battleboard like with characters, or use a more abstract system, where we just track range bands, and ships have a list of maneuvers they can perform?

If you use a battleboard, you need to make it 3D and that's a pain, you need multiple 2D grids and hexboards don't really work in 3D.

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

The first would be more BRPish, but the second would allow for a lot of neat tactics and maneuvers [close, turn about, evasive maneuvering, strafing run,etc.,etc] and would greatly simplify space movement and range calculations ("Okay, I'm 2 zones away from the alien cruiser, that's short range for the particle accelerators and medium range for the main overkill cannon.").

I'd go for the second, unless you want the "Well, you try and use your Forward Blasters but you are just out of range and they fizzle out" approach. For energy weapons, range is pretty irrelevant anyway, I'd give them damage that reduces with range as the beams become unfocussed.

If you're the kind of person who uses hexboards in combat then hexboards will be useful for spaceship combat.

[soltakss]

[quote=Atgxtg;3771]Some sort of relationship is nice for the smaller ships. So that way characters armed with energy weapons can have combat against fighters. The rules, such as they are, could also be used to handle ground vehicles. A scaling method would also allow for Supers to be able to interact with such craft.


I have been working on a method of giving ships SPACES, based on SIZ that can be spent for components, crew quarters, cargo spaces, shuttle bays, etc). Just need to see the BRP SIZ table so I can work out the relationship.
I've got a relationship for RQ3, but not sure if they are going to use the same formula.

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

I was thinking of keeping the values in ship scale a bit smaller. Like a Medium Cruiser would be say SIZ 10-13. That way we can keep things in about the same range as PCs. . Most of the BRP stats work in relation to each other (at least the way I'm imagining it), so keeping SIZ low allows us to keep all the other stats centered around 10. Smaller values would also allow us to use ship scale weapons that do 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, etc for damage instead of needing handfuls of dice. Plus, all the swiped Magic spells like Shields/Protection are easier towork if they are in that scale.

Basically I'm thinking that the hull's APs and Shield (Protection Spell) would keep ships from being destroyed easily.

The way I've always handled this is to give weapons a scale and leave the rest as they are.

So, normal weapons have a scale of 1, truck-mounted weapons have a scale of 2, tank-mounted weapons have a scale of 3, small cruiser weapons have a scale of 4 and so on.

That means that a soldier shooting a truck with a Plasma Rifle would normally do 2D10 damage, but the relative rating is 1/2 so it does (2D10) / 2. A small cruiser firing at a truck from orbit using a Heavy Blaster (1D10) has a relative rating of 4/2 and would do 1D10x2 damage.

Actually, 4 for a small cruiser is too small. I'd set the scales depending on what damage you think they'd do in relative terms. If you think that a Heavy Cruiser would knock out a truck without effort, then give it a rating of 20. Of course, it would be difficult to shoot a single truck from orbit.

These would need a bit of working to see what the relative ratings should be.

[frogspawner]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

What are Warp War's good bits?

It's the only one I know! OK, the main virtue is it's SO simple you can bolt on other complications you might want and still end up with something fairly easy. It's boardless and diceless, outcomes being based on comparing speeds/tactics/weapons selections. It's pencil-and-paper - so what the Cyberboard is for, I don't know... (perhaps an unnecessary campaign star-map).

[soltakss]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Quote:
Originally Posted by soltakss
I'd limit the number of external devices to SIZ, the old hard-point (?) in Traveller.

I started on a method of giciving ship's SPACES based on SIZ. Currently it is based on the old RQ3 progression of +8 SIZ = double the size/mass, but will adapt to BRP's SIZ formula when I see it.

I wouldn't necessarily be too slavish about +8 SIZ doubles mass. If you have super-massive ships then you have to work out mass, engine thrust and so on. I'd keep things relative and rough.

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Nice Idea, but I was thinking of a simplier apporach to reduce bookeeping. Otherwise PP will endu p being used like RQ3 Fatigue Points, and most people don't like those.

Well, yes and no. If you have power drain through equipment use then you need to track it. You either have enough power to do something or you don't.

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

What I was thinking of was going with the idea that ship can generate enough power to operate all it's systems, and PP are just the auxiliary batteries that get used in emergencies (such as combat).

Perhaps, but how would you model a situation where the generators are dead and you only have enough Life Support for 4 hours (Standard Star Trek Episode Number ???)? That's why I think you need some kind of power requirement for Life Support, it causes you to make life or death choices. Do I cut the power to Life Support so that I can charge the batteries enough to make a Hyper-Jump even though it means some of our crew members could die?

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

POW would represent the generators ability to restore PPS while running the rest of the ship. Perhaps we could work up a minPOW requirement based on the number of systems, and allow for combat damage to affect ship stats. So a ship that runs below the min POW would suffer in performance.

That makes sense as well.

I think we'd need to hack out some rules, then build some spaceships and see how the rules go. You know, almost like a playtest

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

I just don't want to track Energy Allocation to the same degree as, say, Star Fleet Battles. I'd rather not have to track PP for life support, and just put stuff like that on hit location or critical tables (both of which could be optional)

I've never played Star Fleet Battles, but it sounds like the kind of thing you might need to do. That's how Star Trek always did it, anyway. Star Wars doesn't really track power but does track system damage.

[SIZ Table]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Agreed. I started working on something like this, but built on a differernt scale to keep the math and bookeeping down.

Whatever the scale is, it needs to be consistent and needs to look reasonable. Also, we need to be able to put together some sample spaceships from other games/films/TV series to see how they work. That way, if we need a ship like a Battlestar then we can get a template, if we need something like a Sun Hawk then we have those stats.

Has anyone got rules for Babylon 5/Star Trek/Star Wars ship stats? It doesn't really matter what the system is, things should be easy to convert as long as we have relative values.

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Quote:
STR - Use this for propulsion, by all means, but this would probably be normal propulsion, not Warp Speed/Hyperspeed/Jump/Interstellar-Drive.
Agreed. FTL travel would be set up as an add on, with some sort of FTL Drive with it's own STR score. Exact details would vary based on type of FTL travel permitted in the campaign. THat way we could use BRP for Star Trek, Star Wars, B5 and what not without being stuck with a partiuclar method of FTL.

What kind of FTL/Interstellar travel do we have examples of?

Hyper-Jump - Jump between two points in normal space through Hyperspace, instant travel, limited range/aiming.

Hyper-Point - Opens up a Jump Point into Hyperspace and allows the ship to travel through Hyperspace faster than normal. This needs a Jump Point back to normal space. This has durational travel, with a cost for each jump and navigational skills, perhaps each ship has to be of a certain SIZ/Power to create a Hyper-Point. (Babylon 5)

Hyper-Gate - Fixed Hyper-Points that allow for travel between these fixed gates. This gives durational travel, but the ship doesn't need to create a Jump Point. (Babylon 5, Buck Rogers)

Warp Speed - Warps space and allows for Faster Than Light travel. Each Warp is a multiple, or perhaps a power of normal light speed. (As Star Trek)

Worm Hole - Opens up a worm hole between 2 points in normal space. Allows travel between the two ends of the worm hole. (Farscape, Star Trek Next Generation)

I'm sure I've forgotten many types.

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Quote:
I know this is BRP not RQ, but there are good rules for ship design in the Mongoose books, Pirates has a couple of good ideas.
Are they very differernt than the ship rules in RQ3/Stormbinger? By all means if there is anything interesting in there mention it. You might be the only one on the BRP forum who owns Pirates!

You should all go out and get Pirates! Ya-har! It is really goodf and captures the feel of the setting. It's not very Mongoosey either.

Ship Design has templates for Barge, Barque, Brigantine, Canoe, Corvette, Fishing Boat, Fluyt, Frigate, Galleon, Indiaman, Raft, Rowboat, Schooner, Small Trader, Sloop, Snow and Warship.

Each ship has hull, Structure Points, Seaworthiness, Length, Draft, Capacity, Crew (Minimum/Average/Maximum), Speed, Weapons and Skill (Shiphandling/Boating).

Ship Qualities can be Agile, Battleshy, Clumsy, Cursed, Defiant, Distinctive, Fragile, Foul, Good, Ill, Lucky, Nimble, Reliable, Slow, Sluggish, Stealthy, Sturdy, ZSweet, Swift or Unreliable. Each one gives a bonus or penalty to certain skills/attributes. So, Fragile gives -1 Hull, but Foul gives +10% to all Crew Resilience Checks (+10% to CONx5% Rols in BRP).

Ships can have Modifications, such as Aft Guns, Bulwarks, Copper Bottom, Chase Guns, Full Repairs, Hidden Cargo Space, Lighten Hull, More Cannons, More Cargo Space, More Sail or Reinforced Hull. These changfe the characteristics of the ship.

Temporary Measure include Bail out the Bilges, Batten Down the Hatches, False Colours and Partial Repairs and each gives a temporary bonus or has a temporary effect.

There are rules for crew quality, crew numbers, random events, plunder, crew combat, ship to ship combat, sighting and chasing ships and more. It's all very modular and seems easy to use. I reckon it wouldn't take more than half an hour or so to come up with a workable ship using these rules.

That's the kind of thing I'd like to see in a BRP Spaceship design - modular and easy to use. Not very technical and modelling exactlky how a spaceship works (after all, we don't know how proper spaceships work).

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

I've been thinking of looking at Decipher's Spaceships book for Star Trek, and BTRC's Stuff! book. Both have very simple design rules.

Is it worth summarising them for those of us who don't have them?

I got a lot of fre stuff from Drivethrurpg, but haven't gone through them yet, some of them may have ship design rules.

[Trifletraxor]

Originally Posted by frogspawner

It's the only one I know! OK, the main virtue is it's SO simple you can bolt on other complications you might want and still end up with something fairly easy. It's boardless and diceless, outcomes being based on comparing speeds/tactics/weapons selections. It's pencil-and-paper - so what the Cyberboard is for, I don't know... (perhaps an unnecessary campaign star-map).

Diceless? We need some way to add that back in though. Is it mainly a fleet against fleet game, or is it for one on ones too? The players will probably sit in only one spaceship, and would want to use some of their skills to influence the outcome.

SGL.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by soltakss

I wouldn't go down that far into detail. As long as people aren't being silly, I don't think you need to relate character SIZ to ship SIZ. By all means have a recommended capacity and a maximum capacity, after all if you fit too many people in a ship, the life support systems become overloaded.

I tend to think that there's a bit too many border conditions not to want to have something that addresses how ship size relates to human size (and perhaps more importantly, Strength). This is a game that's going to be handling superheroes and other potentially larger than life characters on occasions, so interacting with small ships may be a real issue; and you have to deal potentially with the in-between case of non-spacecraft vehicles to boot.