Superhero games

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by ORtrail

I'd rather add to taste, as it were, then have to cut away at a game system to be comfortable with it. Simplicity is a big plus to me.

Wow! I'm the opposite. I'd find it much easier to cut away something I don't need that to have to reinvent the wheel., fire, pulley, steam engine, fusion, etc.

Plus, if things are thought out at the beginning you avoid most of the problems when you shoehorn stuff into the game later. For instance, the SIZ, AP, and HP ratings of big vehicles combat vehicles like tanks and battleships don't usually matter. But for those who run a Supers game they need to be able to damage, list and throw them like in the comics. On the other hand, they need to be tough enough to seem tough to characters in a non supers environment, or to non supers in the same campaign.

One thing I'll give Jason credit for is that his solution (relatively low APs, high Hit Points) does that. Supers can smash tanks, and while the tanks are a bit vulnerable to small arms 140 hit points gives them some resilience. Its not the direct that I would have gone it, but it is a direction, and will lead to some internal consistency.


Some people think that you can just cut & paste something into a RPG and that each section, and table stand alone. It doesn't work that way. The different parts of a game interact. One change or addition can alter many other things in a domino effect.

[ORtrail]

I think the important thing here is that Nightshade and Atgxtg APPEAR to agree on something.

I don't feel any great need to debate this matter with you guys, as fun as that might be, as it comes down to individual preference, right?

If anything, let's all agree that BRP allows for a very flexible range and style of gaming. With a tendency toward more "realistic" results than most other systems.

BTW, I never ran a Superworld campaign where the heroes could lift a tank, let alone a jumbo jet. Having them be at least a bit vulnerable to a normal Joe with a baseball bat or gun was always my preference.

Of course, I think BRP Superworld tends to break down at the high power levels you'd find in the DC or Marvel universe, as most of us have probably seen. Keeping AP levels at 10 or less, and attack damages at about 3d6-4d6 was the norm for me.

Others would prefer to throw a city bus around, or shrug off machinegun fire, but I never cared for having to scoop up 14d6 and roll them...

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by ORtrail

I think the important thing here is that Nightshade and Atgxtg APPEAR to agree on something.

Actually, barring our one contratempts, we usually get along quite well and agree on a lot.

Of course, I think BRP Superworld tends to break down at the high power levels you'd find in the DC or Marvel universe, as most of us have probably seen. Keeping AP levels at 10 or less, and attack damages at about 3d6-4d6 was the norm for me.

Well, I'd argue thats _very_ low powered for a supers setting; it isn't even the typical for any superhero setting I'm familiar with.

[ORtrail]

Other than playing the Marvel Super Heroes RPG (back in the mid-80s) I've never had to deal with high powered super types. V&V had more range than my Superworld campaigns, depending on the powers you had, but most heroes were fairly close in power levels with both systems.

The MSH RPG had to deal with Daredevil at one end and Thor/Hulk at the other. About the same story with the DC Heroes RPGs too.

As I said though, I tend toward "street level" supers, which BRP does very well. Note this preference is because I find Green Arrow/Batman/Wolverine level heroes more interesting, and frankly, adventure ideas more plentiful than having to deal with The Authority/Avengers/Justice League.

How do you challenge heroes that powerful? Well, you can of course, but the simple task of stopping a group of bank robbers, or a street gang, can be just as interesting, if done right.

Depends on what your players want though. A Wolverine type can't just start slashing away against 10 guys armed with guns in my adventures. He might get away with it versus 5-6, and 1-2 is no big deal, but I'd prefer a player have to think a bit versus knowing he is bullet proof.

You could have those same 10 guys armed with lasers rifles made by Doctor BluRay, strong enough to cause some damage to Bronze Man through his battlesuit, and have just as much fun I suppose.

Right or wrong, my thought is to use BRP for lower level heroes, and break out Mutants & Masterminds for the high level stuff.

I'd guess my experiences are hardly the norm though...

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by ORtrail

How do you challenge heroes that powerful? Well, you can of course, but the simple task of stopping a group of bank robbers, or a street gang, can be just as interesting, if done right.

There's nothing wrong with that; I just think at that point you're really playing costumed adventures more than full blown superheroes for the most part.

I'd guess my experiences are hardly the norm though...

That was all I was really suggesting; that that's a really low-powered supers setting by most people's standards.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by ORtrail

How do you challenge heroes that powerful? Well, you can of course, but the simple task of stopping a group of bank robbers, or a street gang, can be just as interesting, if done right.

Depends on what your players want though. A Wolverine type can't just start slashing away against 10 guys armed with guns in my adventures. He might get away with it versus 5-6, and 1-2 is no big deal, but I'd prefer a player have to think a bit versus knowing he is bullet proof.

You could have those same 10 guys armed with lasers rifles made by Doctor BluRay, strong enough to cause some damage to Bronze Man through his battlesuit, and have just as much fun I suppose.

Right or wrong, my thought is to use BRP for lower level heroes, and break out Mutants & Masterminds for the high level stuff.

I'd guess my experiences are hardly the norm though...

You don't always have to match the heroes in power either. For example, one of the best adventures I ran involved a fire and ther hores trying to save people. In that case superstrength didn't solve the problem. Likewise a hurricane or earthquake (and the rescue/clean up afterwards) can prove exciting.

Or just have a villian with some smarts. For instance, if you knew some superstrong guy who was immune to bullets was likely to pop up, what would you do the keep him from catching you? Maybe arange for some diversions.

And there is always the old standy of the comics. Matching the PCs against Supervillians.


Not that there is anything wrong with "street-level" superheros. But any game that claims to be able to run Supers needs to be able to do the Spiderman and Iron Man types too.

[ORtrail]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Not that there is anything wrong with "street-level" superheros. But any game that claims to be able to run Supers needs to be able to do the Spiderman and Iron Man types too.

Spiderman, I have no issues with. He really isn't that powerful, in a relative sense. He could lift a car with some effort, absorb a pretty good beatdown, and entangle with his webbing. Oh, and stick to walls, some high DEX and that Danger Sense.

I think BRP handles him pretty well. In fact, most of the X-Men stat up fairly well (I might scale Colossus back a bit).

Iron Man? Well, he is a bit beyond the level I'd like. He has 1001 gadgets built into that suit, can toss tanks around, and those repulsors pack quite a punch. I love the character concept of having a high-tech suit of armor, but I'd keep him around 12 AP, maybe 6d6 with those repulsors and his punches. That's my comfort level though, and I know BRP can handle more than that. He could easily have 20 AP, 10d6 attacks, etc. Where is the practical limit where BRP breaks down though? Would having 40 AP and 20d6 energy blasts be more fun? Anything over 6d6 seems like more of a chore to deal with to me. I always thought West End Games D6 system broke down when you started tossing double handfuls of dice and adding it all up.

Maybe it's my love of henchmen, as many of the adventures started with the heroes taking on the normal human goons, and then getting to the actual super villains as the plot progressed. Well trained henchmen, with some skills and better weapons, in groups of 4-6 per hero, can be more than a little bothersome. Never hurts to have an actual villain leading them either, then the main battle with the other 3-4 villians in the finale.

If the goons have to be minor villians themselves to have any chance at hurting the good guys, that takes away from the game, IMHO. Having said that, I'd jump at the chance to play in a high powered game if someone wanted to run it. What are those stats on Cthulhu/Godzilla again?

I totally agree that natural disasters and a ton of misdirection belong in every supers campaign. Is Natural Disaster a group of super powered ecco-terrorists? Or desperate heroes trying to prevent a future of limited biological diversity and global warming?

Well great, now I'm pumped for some Superworld gaming!

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by ORtrail

Spiderman, I have no issues with. He really isn't that powerful, in a relative sense. He could lift a car with some effort, absorb a pretty good beatdown, and entangle with his webbing. Oh, and stick to walls, some high DEX and that Danger Sense.

Let's see, Spidey can lift around 5 tons, that's in the SIZ 60 range, give or take. THe webbing, wall clawling, a very high DEX, a few level so leaping, and an great dodge ability, and spidey sense (tough to work that one out. For startes it would let him dodge when surprised). So if Paker is a bit scrwney, SIZ 11 the with a STR+SIZ of 71 he is in the +3D6 range. A tough street super.

Originally Posted by ORtrail

I think BRP handles him pretty well. In fact, most of the X-Men stat up fairly well (I might scale Colossus back a bit).

Really? Rogue, Phoenix, Cyclops and Wolverine are all tough customers. Cyclops optiblasts outdo Iron Man's repulsor rays, Rouge is almost as strong, and Phoenix is sheer overkill.

Originally Posted by ORtrail

Iron Man? Well, he is a bit beyond the level I'd like. He has 1001 gadgets built into that suit, can toss tanks around, and those repulsors pack quite a punch. I love the character concept of having a high-tech suit of armor, but I'd keep him around 12 AP, maybe 6d6 with those repulsors and his punches. That's my comfort level though, and I know BRP can handle more than that. He could easily have 20 AP, 10d6 attacks, etc. Where is the practical limit where BRP breaks down though? Would having 40 AP and 20d6 energy blasts be more fun? Anything over 6d6 seems like more of a chore to deal with to me. I always thought West End Games D6 system broke down when you started tossing double handfuls of dice and adding it all up.

Oh he is definately a bit beyond the street level, but he is a reasonably powered character as far as supers go.
The problem with a 12AP iron man is that he suddenly becomes pin cushion man. A staple of the genre is bulletproof heroes. As it is now, the 24AP of the modern tank aren't going to stop an impale from a .44. I think that if someone is going to do such a character they need to be true to the concept. Yeah, he is a high powered character, but superheroes are by definition. Based on his abilities he would probably rate in a lot more than 20APs.

That is what I meant before about how the settle and numbers mix. If tanks have 25APs then machineguns can now hurt tanks. In BRP terms it makes more sense to get rid of anti-tank guns and just load a bunch of machineguns. Between burst fire and savings in cost, you'll shred a tank must faster with bullets.

Basically RQ was never really desined to handle tanks or supers and a lot of the ideas that seem perfercly reasonable for characters like impales and crtical hits don't tranlate well under those conditions. Someone damaging a tank with a .25ACP pistol because he rolled a critical was not something anyone foresaw when the game was originally designed.


Yeah, a fistful of D6s is clumsy. There are a few other options though, like multipliers (4D6x5 is a lot easier than 20D6). Scaling is another method. The old increasing SIZ/STR chart meant that you could easily do scaling by subtracting from stats.


But again, any RPG that is going to cover superheroes needs to be true to the source. Unless uit is devising it's own setting. Most people who decide to play a superhero gam have a good idea of what they want to be able to do, and expect the game to allow for it.

Maybe not every character can lift a tank, but every superhero team seems to have at least one character than can.

Originally Posted by ORtrail

Maybe it's my love of henchmen, as many of the adventures started with the heroes taking on the normal human goons, and then getting to the actual super villains as the plot progressed. Well trained henchmen, with some skills and better weapons, in groups of 4-6 per hero, can be more than a little bothersome. Never hurts to have an actual villain leading them either, then the main battle with the other 3-4 villians in the finale.

If the goons have to be minor villians themselves to have any chance at hurting the good guys, that takes away from the game, IMHO.

I sounds like Nightshade was right. You don't seem to be wanting to run a supers campaign as much as a "masked crimefighter" campaign. I think your style is more along the lines of the Shadow and the Green Hornet than the Avengers or Justice League.

That's fine, too. I just hope the game can handle such characters. The original Superworld couldn't, the boxed set could.

Originally Posted by ORtrail

Having said that, I'd jump at the chance to play in a high powered game if someone wanted to run it. What are those stats on Cthulhu/Godzilla again?

THe Godzillia rip off in CoC was nerfed! His SIZ was down in the Dragon range. A more realistic Gojira at his orinal (small) mass of 20,000 tons would be SIZ 2000 with a STR to match! (a 249D6 damage bonus!). Now that is well beyond BRP limits! It also well beyond the limits of most supers, even the ones wearing monomolecuar chainmain reinforced with ionic fields. TO me it looks like a job for Superman.

But I did throw a couple of T-Rexes at teams of supers in the past.

Originally Posted by ORtrail

I totally agree that natural disasters and a ton of misdirection belong in every supers campaign. Is Natural Disaster a group of super powered ecco-terrorists? Or desperate heroes trying to prevent a future of limited biological diversity and global warming?

Well great, now I'm pumped for some Superworld gaming!

One thing that I loved about V&V was that players played themselves as superheroes. THis meanst that everyone's real life was part of the campaign. it served as a great source of troubles, since while a GM might have to wonder just what might happen to a newly created hero, he had no problems figuring out what could happen to his friends.

We had some fun sessions where the big problem wasn't so much the villain, but trying to finish the job fast so the characters could get to work on time. One hero even eneded up coming to something of an understanding with one villian who covered for him. It added a whole new dimesnion to things.


Plus it is always fun with supers to do the occasional common mugger, or hold up, where the PC completely outclasses the guy and kicks butt. It tens minutes tops, but it is an important tend minutes.

[ORtrail]

Yeah, I'm a fan of the old pulp heroes. BRP/Superworld handles it very well. I actually watched part of the old Flash Gordon 1980 movie, a couple weeks ago. We need a BRP conversion.

I think Superworld/BRP can handle a lot of super hero types, not as powerful as some would prefer, but still within the "super hero range".

If I had a player that wanted a Superman clone, I'd just laugh. Seriously. I've always set out the power level and those that play understand they need to think more along the lines of Hawkman or the Black Panther, maybe a bit more.

BTW, were you saying that boxed Superworld CAN handle the heavy hitter supers, while the original couldn't?

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by ORtrail

Yeah, I'm a fan of the old pulp heroes. BRP/Superworld handles it very well. I actually watched part of the old Flash Gordon 1980 movie, a couple weeks ago. We need a BRP conversion.

Actually I think we need a spot on the wiki to list settings. People have been coming up with a bunch of good setting ideas. I'm working on four now. A spot where they could all be listed and those of us with the desire can tackle them.

I'm somewhat guilty of old pup hero envy too. Also for street level heroes. I even used the "Tumbler" Batmobile as one of my testbed vehicles for the vehicle Design and "Quick Write-Up" rules I'm working up. I think I'll tackle the Black Beauty, the Green Hornet was always a favorite, especially the radio series.

Originally Posted by ORtrail

If I had a player that wanted a Superman clone, I'd just laugh.

How about a Supergirl clone?

Serriously, I didn something like that once. Years ago when we were playing a "Wildcards" style supers vccampaign I did up a character who had Suergirl-like powers. She wasn't really on Supergirl level, but could take out a tank. THere were a lot of personal things going on with her that made her an interesting character. Mostof her problems couldn't be solved with super strength.

Originally Posted by ORtrail

Seriously. I've always set out the power level and those that play understand they need to think more along the lines of Hawkman or the Black Panther, maybe a bit more.

I've never set a power level. It really doesn't matter in a comics style campaign. The "weak" characters always get a chance to shine in the comics and should get the same opportunities in an RPG. Game balance is mostly an illusion anyway. It not so much how tough the bad is on paper as how tough he is in the player's heads. Part of the duties of any good GM is to get into his players heads and screw with them.

Originally Posted by ORtrail

BTW, were you saying that boxed Superworld CAN handle the heavy hitter supers, while the original couldn't?

Yes. Superworld the 18 page booklet is a concept. Superworld the boxed set is a fleshed out RPG. Many of the RQ/BRP rules get tweaked in the boxed set to better fit the genre. One example is the SIZ chart. In WoW Superworld, a Tankw as SIZ 150, making it impossible for any PC to even have a remote chance of lifting one. In the boxed set, however, th SIZ chart was changed to an exponential scale (an idea that was later used in RQ3, and seems to be an influence of BRP. At least to around SIZ 160). That meant that a character with an 80 STR could now lift a tank. Plus the cost for STR went from 1:1 to 3:1 so 50 hero points went a lot further as far as STR went. Of course SUperworld the boxed set used the standard STR+SIZ damage bonus fomula, while WoW SUperworld used a +1D6 for each 10 points of STR or SIZ (but not both) over 10.

But all in all the boxed set handles supers better. It is also a bit clunky. It"s like an old radiator, it works, but it will attract your attention while doing so.