Superhero games

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Kloster

- 1 scenario pack called 'Bad medicine for Dr Drugs', which is for a teen hero campaign (not good, compatible with Champions, 2nd Ed and Villains and Vigillantes)

I'd argue that wasn't a bad scenario, just a specialized one; it did a pretty good job with the teen heroes genre of the time, but if that wasn't what you were after...

[Kloster]

Superworld was in fact Champions, 2nd ed system for managing powers tacked on BRP.

It was one that part badly done and prone to breaking (we tried and succeded successfuly at that time when we were quite powerplayers):

With champions, the active cost is divided by 1+(sum of limitations) to get the real cost, which drives a reduction of efficiency each time you add a limitation.

With superworld, you get a price break of n 6th of the price for each limitation, which means that if you get 6 1/6th limitations (or 3 1/3rd limitations), the power cost becomes ... ZERO, and you could get all the powers of the book at an infinite level for free.

At that time, a friend of mine discovered that. We were already more inclined to used Champions and, in addition with the lack of support from Chaosium, that was the crippling blow. We stopped using Superworld because some players were unstoppable.

Another problem was that the number of power points was to be equal to the total sum of characteristics, which could drive to stupid characters, just to have the right amount of power points.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

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IMO, the worst fits are probably GURPS (which really breaks down, as it tries to be grittier than BRP), and Palladium (no non-lethal combat, so people don't drop unless dead or dying, making most heroes mass murderers).

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I never saw a better assassination attempt on GURPS Super and Heroes Unlimited (that was the name). How true.


...[/quote]

I never saw a better assassination attempt on GURPS Super and Heroes Unlimited (that was the name). How true.

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

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My overall favorites for Super gaming would be Golden Heroes, and Marvel (SAGA version).
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For me, Golden Heroes (if we're both speaking of the same Golden Heroes from Games Workshop) is in the same league as Heroes Unlimited. It's completely random character creation was completely stupid and resulted in the worst Super characters I've ever had to play.

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

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The two most popular super RPGs are probably Champions, and Marvel (TSR version, revised edition).
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The only superhero game ever translated to french was Marvel Super Hero (1st ed from TSR), so no choice on the most popular here, as no one ever created a french game on the subject.

The global sales of Champions in France were about 10 to 20 sells per product, maximum. Superworld (total sales) was below 50. Villains and vigilantes was in the same league. I would be much surprised to learn that any of the other games sold more than 20.

All in all, Superworld was probably the worse case of sell for Chaosium in France.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

I think there was maybe one supplement for Superworld. Most of the superhero RPGs did have supplements printed for them, though. The best supported were the first Marvel and DC rpgs, not surprisingly.
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No, Champions wins, no question asked, for the best support and the sheer amount of products.
Even if, from France, I never had the ability to see all the production on the subject, here is what I saw or have (in addition to rules):
- Superworld - 3 products.
- Villains and Vigilantes (FGU): Around 10 scenarii I do have.
- MSH (TSR) and Advanced (Sic) MSH: 5 sextensions and around 20 scenarii.
- DC Heroes (Mayfair Games) : 3 extensions.
- Golden Heroes (Games Workshop) : 2 Introductory scenarii (excellent).
- Heroes unlimited (Palladium) : 1 extensions.
- Champions (Hero Games) : more than 30 Scenarii and more than 50 extensions.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Kloster

Superworld was in fact Champions, 2nd ed system for managing powers tacked on BRP.

Not really. While Champions had an influence there was as much influence from V&V on it; in fact, the origin of Superworld was an attempt to take V&V and BRP-ize it, according to Steve Perrin.

[Atgxtg]

GURPS SUPERS and Heroes Unlimited
Both systems badly needed an non-lethal combat option, but didn't get one. Our group got the message when I started wondering why my hero character was toting around an SMG.

HU's "one power" rule probably made it the worst supers RPG. THe pwers didn't balance, and as the game was combat driven, and fights ended with someone dead/dying, the result was a very, very bloody RPG. Too bloody for the genre.

Yeah, were talking about the same Golden Heroes.

Actually character creation wasn't that bad, since you have to justify your powers with your origin story. You got some extra powers, but were expected to drop some. With a good GM and players, character creation worked.
There was also an alternate version similar to V&V that broke up powers by type, better fitting certain concepts.

GH played very well and had some nice ideas. For one thing, it allowed a thug to be able to actually kill a civilian with a single shot, something that was tough in most other hero RPGs at the time.

GH also had some neat stuff, like the campaign ratings, that helped to flesh out things. I also liked the HTC/HTK way of handling damage much better than the methods used in Champions or Superworld.

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

I'd argue that wasn't a bad scenario, just a specialized one; it did a pretty good job with the teen heroes genre of the time, but if that wasn't what you were after...

Even for a very specialized one, I found it bad.
It's true I've never been a fan of teen heroes, but this one ...
Almost the only one I find acceptable are the one about the Something Academy, for Champions New millenium (the one using Fuzion system).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Not really. While Champions had an influence there was as much influence from V&V on it; in fact, the origin of Superworld was an attempt to take V&V and BRP-ize it, according to Steve Perrin.

This I have read, but I think the Champions influence is more clear (The point system for buying powers, with advantages and limitations, forex).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Kloster

No, Champions wins, no question asked, for the best support and the sheer amount of products.
Even if, from France, I never had the ability to see all the production on the subject, here is what I saw or have (in addition to rules):
- Superworld - 3 products.
- Villains and Vigilantes (FGU): Around 10 scenarii I do have.
- MSH (TSR) and Advanced (Sic) MSH: 5 sextensions and around 20 scenarii.
- DC Heroes (Mayfair Games) : 3 extensions.
- Golden Heroes (Games Workshop) : 2 Introductory scenarii (excellent).
- Heroes unlimited (Palladium) : 1 extensions.
- Champions (Hero Games) : more than 30 Scenarii and more than 50 extensions.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

I think your missing some stuff for Marvel and DC. DC did release some adventures, and I own at least 3 supplements. Likewise there were more products for Marvel.

Still, I'll concede that Champions out supported the others. It used to be HERO's flagship RPG, and at one time it's only RPG.

I think TSR Mavel probably outsold it through. Marvel and DC had an advantage in being able to use their own universes. Since most Super gamers read comics that is a telling edge.

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

GURPS SUPERS and Heroes Unlimited
Both systems badly needed an non-lethal combat option, but didn't get one. Our group got the message when I started wondering why my hero character was toting around an SMG.

HU's "one power" rule probably made it the worst supers RPG. THe pwers didn't balance, and as the game was combat driven, and fights ended with someone dead/dying, the result was a very, very bloody RPG. Too bloody for the genre.
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Agree!!!

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

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Yeah, were talking about the same Golden Heroes.
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There was also an alternate version similar to V&V that broke up powers by type, better fitting certain concepts.
...

Mine was a blue box, A4, about 5 to 7 cm height.
It seems from your descriptions it was the 2nd.

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

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Actually character creation wasn't that bad, since you have to justify your powers with your origin story. You got some extra powers, but were expected to drop some. With a good GM and players, character creation worked.
...

Yeah, true. Magic, energy projection, HTH Attack and Bionic brain (if I remember well what I rolled up around 20 years ago).

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

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GH played very well and had some nice ideas. For one thing, it allowed a thug to be able to actually kill a civilian with a single shot, something that was tough in most other hero RPGs at the time.
...

Yes, and I like it.

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

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GH also had some neat stuff, like the campaign ratings, that helped to flesh out things. I also liked the HTC/HTK way of handling damage much better than the methods used in Champions or Superworld.

I would not say it worked better than in Champions, but it worked well.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster