Superhero games

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Well, sometimes you're stuck with the problem that there's just no appropriate tool for the job, and you have to use the closest one; or when there are external reasons you use it even though it isn't ideal. As an example, if you've got a bunch of hardcore BRP fans, but everyone wants to play a high-cinematic game, in practice you're probably going to end up doing your best to make some flavor of BRP work for that, even though its contrary to the general biases of the system (which tends to lean toward the gritty and relatively realistic), because starting with a more appropriate base system just isn't an option (this is why people do the opposite with D20 so often). But it really isn't the ideal way to go; pick the closest to what you want among the available systems and work from there is usually better.

Oh, yeah, I definitely with you on this one. It is less true today with all the different systems out there, but was certainly the case in the 90s and 80s. Often I would have an idea for a campaign, and then try to determine what was the best system to adapt for that purpose.

Or, when I wanted to run one thing, with a bunch of players who didn't want to try a new system. I did a D&D/Glorantha crossover under just such conditions (and with 3.0, too).

For the most part, though, most genres have multiple games to cover them, so we have more options than on the past.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by seneschal

Based on the discussion so far, it sounds like a BRP supers system would have a "feel" similar to Palladium or V&V. That's fine if you're portraying costumed crimefighters or pulp heroes armed with weird science gadgets. It might not work quite so well if you're wanting to play Superman or the Fantastic Four. I've personally never been fond of "grim and gritty" comics. If I want realism I'll read the newspaper. Superhero stories are supposed to help you escape reality.

Its not quite that bad. Superworld could do a credible job of handling low to middle end Marvel characters reasonably well; there were some changes in what running out of hit points meant, and a power that allowed you to buy extra hit points (and that was clearly meant to be virtually universally used) that buffered some of BRPs more harsh systems. It was actually fairly unlikely to die in a superfight with those in use unless someone was deliberately setting out to kill you. And the range of powers in the standalone version of Superworld was fairly large, and you got to chose them out of a point pool, so you didn't have some of the random silliness that could result in V&V or HU. It just didn't work well for really high powered supers (in a Different Worlds article some years ago, Steve Perrin had some telling comments about the difficulty he had putting together a credible Magneto for the X-Men examples he was doing) or those with an extremely wide range of powers (you'd have difficulty even doing a lower powered version of Green Lantern because of the variety of powers they exhibit). But within that range, it was actually a pretty credible Bronze Age supers game.

[Atgxtg]

Perhaps the biggest challenge has less to do with game mechanics but with game style. For instance many RPGs need to work some sort of balance of power between characters, or at least between the PCs and their opponents.

Supers games don't. Batman just isn't in the same league as Superman (okay, they are both in the Justice League), and can't really compete with him. In the comics they get around this by having Batman use his brains. Even that is bending things a bit. Supes is supposed to be very intelligent, but acts like a musclebound idiot most of the time. For instance he has superspeed, but tends to rely on his invulnerabilty-thus he get shot with the kryptonite bullet. Or he pauses when someone threatens a civilan despite the fact that he has 100 differernt ways to disarm/defdeat a foe before they could carry out the threat.

Now most RPG rules aren't really set to to give the right advance for handling such situations, and a "similationist" RPG i probably going to backfire on such applications.

[fmitchell]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Perhaps the biggest challenge has less to do with game mechanics but with game style. For instance many RPGs need to work some sort of balance of power between characters, or at least between the PCs and their opponents.

Supers games don't. Batman just isn't in the same league as Superman (okay, they are both in the Justice League), and can't really compete with him. In the comics they get around this by having Batman use his brains. Even that is bending things a bit. Supes is supposed to be very intelligent, but acts like a musclebound idiot most of the time. For instance he has superspeed, but tends to rely on his invulnerabilty-thus he get shot with the kryptonite bullet. Or he pauses when someone threatens a civilan despite the fact that he has 100 differernt ways to disarm/defdeat a foe before they could carry out the threat.

If you've seen Truth & Justice from Atomic Sock Monkey, the author explicitly tries to reproduce these sort of plot-dependent powers. Not to delve too deeply into the rules (what there is of them), every use of power is a roll against that power's rating. So, you can pit Superman's "Kryptonian Physique" +6 against Batman's "Gadgeteer" +6 directly, and the odds would be 50/50; if Supes won, he'd knock Bats for a loop (but not actually drive his fist through Bats' body, as he might in real life); if Bats won, he'd have some secret weapon in his utility belt that hurt Supes for that round.

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by fmitchell

If you've seen Truth & Justice from Atomic Sock Monkey, the author explicitly tries to reproduce these sort of plot-dependent powers. Not to delve too deeply into the rules (what there is of them), every use of power is a roll against that power's rating. So, you can pit Superman's "Kryptonian Physique" +6 against Batman's "Gadgeteer" +6 directly, and the odds would be 50/50; if Supes won, he'd knock Bats for a loop (but not actually drive his fist through Bats' body, as he might in real life); if Bats won, he'd have some secret weapon in his utility belt that hurt Supes for that round.

Very interesting idea.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by seneschal

The game system really does affect the "feel" of your campaign. That's why I enjoy Hero System for superheroing (although I realize not everyone here is a fan). Especially with 3rd edition, it was hard for your character to get killed, encouraging cinematic brawls and outrageous stunts. And the system really does allow you to create nearly any character you've seen in comics or can imagine.
...

Completely agree here. That's also one of the reason i like Champions.

Originally Posted by seneschal

...
Villians & Vigilantes was also fun but you were limited to the predefined (and randomly selected) powers. Also, since you were playing yourself with powers, that's how the game system felt: "normals with powers." You might have awesome cosmic energies at your command, but you'd still huff and puff climbing the stairs -- and a kid with a pea shooter might be able to take you out.
...

Agreed.

Originally Posted by seneschal

...
Palladium's superhero game, Heroes Unlimited, had a feel similar to V&V. Combat was surprisingly lethal to a Champions player. Unless you had the power Invulnerability you'd better have ducked when the bad guys started shooting. And the random power assignment could lead to some kooky character concepts. That's OK as long as you didn't have a particular character type in mind, but if you'd wanted to play an homage to your favorite scarlet speedster it could be disconcerting to roll up a Robocop clone with pink horns and a prehensile tail. One thing I did like was the scads of skills every Heroes Unlimited character was required to pick. Before 5th edtion, a Hero System character practically had to choose between having powers or having skills. It was nice, in Palladium, to be able to do something other than melt brick walls with your breath.
...

Yup. Apart from the system (Palladium is probably the most outdated system in production), lethality of the combat system and the random creation and attribution of powers are the weakest points. Your exemples are not the supidest ones we've rolled up.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by fmitchell

If you've seen Truth & Justice from Atomic Sock Monkey, the author explicitly tries to reproduce these sort of plot-dependent powers. Not to delve too deeply into the rules (what there is of them), every use of power is a roll against that power's rating. So, you can pit Superman's "Kryptonian Physique" +6 against Batman's "Gadgeteer" +6 directly, and the odds would be 50/50; if Supes won, he'd knock Bats for a loop (but not actually drive his fist through Bats' body, as he might in real life); if Bats won, he'd have some secret weapon in his utility belt that hurt Supes for that round.

Yeah, that's sort of what I think soltakss was hinting at with HeroQeust. A few other RPGs doe the same (I'll risk mention SotC again).

But, the thing with Superman is that his Physique is a lot higher than Batman's Gadgeteer, so it's still a non-contest.

THe comics can pull this stuff off by putting in challenges that are geared towards Batman's strengths. For instance, Batman can hack into a network to find a vital clue, Superman can't. THat is something that RPGs can mimic easily, with a good adventure and GM.

What RPGs have problems doing, on the other hand, is dumbing down, or restricting Superman from doing something else that would make Batman superfluous to the adventure. For instance, using X-Ray vision or telescopic vision to look through the building and read the info right off the villain's screen.

One reason why the Flash got iced in the DC universe was that he is hard to work in a team environment. Basically, he could zip off to the problem, and fix everything at superspeed, before the others arrive.

[soltakss]

The way around this is to make certain tasks harder.

In HeroQuest terms:
Look through underwear or look through a normal wall - resistance 14.
Look through a lead-lined box - resistance 10M.
Look through something far away 20M
Look through several walls at once 20M
Search a building from outside and read something stored in a cupboard 20M2

or whatever.

In BRP terms, you'd assign a penalty depending on how difficult the task was.

Look through underwear or look through a normal wall -0%
Look through a lead-lined box -40%
Look through something far away -40%
Look through several walls at once -60%
Search a building from outside and read something stored in a cupboard -100%

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by soltakss

The way around this is to make certain tasks harder.

In HeroQuest terms:
Look through underwear or look through a normal wall - resistance 14.
Look through a lead-lined box - resistance 10M.
Look through something far away 20M
Look through several walls at once 20M
Search a building from outside and read something stored in a cupboard 20M2

or whatever.

In BRP terms, you'd assign a penalty depending on how difficult the task was.

Look through underwear or look through a normal wall -0%
Look through a lead-lined box -40%
Look through something far away -40%
Look through several walls at once -60%
Search a building from outside and read something stored in a cupboard -100%

That's only a facor if power levels are equal. While that is typical of RPGs, it isn't typical of four color comics. Some characters can do things like that. So if you are running in a preexisting setting, then you have to accept that some characterscan do stuff like that. Changing the difficulty doesn't help, since all that happens is that the hero's stats get upped to account for what he can do. If Superman can see through a building, then he needs a stat score high enough to allow for it. In the comics, Superman can act stupid around the JSA and JLA, and let other characters shine. With an RPG, there is little to keep Superman from flying off at superspeed, taking out all the bad guys, and solving the adventure by the RPG equivalent to page 2.

Some hero RPGs address this sort of thing, and it is where RPG theory concepts help. But for the "simulationist" approach it is a big problem. A "nuts & bolts" approach doesn't hold up well for the genre.

[fmitchell]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

But, the thing with Superman is that his Physique is a lot higher than Batman's Gadgeteer, so it's still a non-contest.

Truth & Justice conflicts are very abstract, with only a limited number of values that a "Quality" can take. The base PDQ system has only five levels: Poor, Average, Good, Expert, and Master. T&J adds "normal scale" and "super scale" to the mix, where a "normal scale" Master quality can sometimes compete with a "super scale" Average quality.

So, according to the rules, Batman can have a "super scale" Gadgeteering that's the same as Superman's "super scale" Kryptonian Physique. If the GM buys the argument that they compete on an equal footing -- e.g. Batman prepared a few anti-Superman gadgets, or has an "undefined" gadget to play -- then the odds are 50/50.

T&J, and the base PDQ system, resemble HeroQuest with far more radical simplification. PDQ Qualities are more like HeroQuest Keywords than abilities.