Shrinkwrapping!

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by drohem

We're on the same page here

I know that if I were running a game store, I would shrink-wrap all copies but one as a preview/shelf copy.

The problem with this is it isn't uncommon for stores to get only one copy of all but the most popular products these days. That wasn't that uncommon even with more obscure products years ago; the place I bought my copies of most BTRC rules only had one copy of each of them for example.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Ironically, this is sort of a side thread of a side thread. The idea being that one of the advantages of closed systems is that you can see what you are buying before you buy, where as with PDFs and many third party products, you are forced to buy blind.

I wonder what other regional differences might exist in RPGing?

I'm not sure what your rationale really was for claiming this in the first place though; how is an OGL style product any worse than any new system in knowing what you're getting? Honestly, unless the licensor doesn't permit any alteration of rules at all, how's it even any better with just licensed games?

I'm just not quite understanding this. If your premise is that a lot of D20 OGL products are junk, that's true, but a lot of games in general are junk; I can't say I've found OGL based material any worse than the run of the mill here. Certainly Mutants and Masterminds is a better game than many entirely new ones, and I certainly knew more about it than I do with many of those before I bought it.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

I'm not sure what your rationale really was for claiming this in the first place though; how is an OGL style product any worse than any new system in knowing what you're getting? Honestly, unless the licensor doesn't permit any alteration of rules at all, how's it even any better with just licensed games?

I'm just not quite understanding this. If your premise is that a lot of D20 OGL products are junk, that's true, but a lot of games in general are junk; I can't say I've found OGL based material any worse than the run of the mill here. Certainly Mutants and Masterminds is a better game than many entirely new ones, and I certainly knew more about it than I do with many of those before I bought it.

Sure, my rational is as follows:

1) Big company products are more likely to show up on the shelves than third party products. Both because game stores are more likely to stock WotC, or Chasoium than Joe Smoe's games, and also because many third party companies don't produce hard copy.

So, barring shrinkwrap, consuers can flip through the products and filter out the good from the bad before buying.

2) New systems from old companies are usually a bit easier to guess about than new systems from new companies. For instance, we can guess what a new Chasoium or WotC gaming book will be like. So if we have a preference, we can filter that way.

So if you like what a company has released in the past, you are more likely to like their new product. But if you haven't heard of the company before, you have nothing to go on.

3) Since established companies tend to be in this for the long haul, there is less chance of seeing them release an entirely useless piece of junk to make a fast buck. There's a lot of OGL stuff out there that just snags a quick profit for some fly-by-nighter.

I haven't seen many 3rd party products that match the quality of the official stuff. Most the OGL stuff I've seen has been crap. At best, feeding someone's desire to be a profession RPG writer, at worse a quick buck. Most is really fanzine quality stuff.

That also hurts RPGing, since now people are less likely to share their homegrown stuff, when they can sell it.

OGL did what is was supposed to do for WotC. It turned around the trend in RPGing and made D&D/D20 the predominant system again. Practically any company that is writing good D20 stuff was writing good or better non-D20 stuff before OGL.

OGL won't help BRP much, since the majority of RPGers don't give a squat about BRP anyway. And most D&Ders don't look at and buy non D20 products.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Sure, my rational is as follows:

1) Big company products are more likely to show up on the shelves than third party products. Both because game stores are more likely to stock WotC, or Chasoium than Joe Smoe's games, and also because many third party companies don't produce hard copy.

So, barring shrinkwrap, consuers can flip through the products and filter out the good from the bad before buying.

2) New systems from old companies are usually a bit easier to guess about than new systems from new companies. For instance, we can guess what a new Chasoium or WotC gaming book will be like. So if we have a preference, we can filter that way.

So if you like what a company has released in the past, you are more likely to like their new product. But if you haven't heard of the company before, you have nothing to go on.

3) Since established companies tend to be in this for the long haul, there is less chance of seeing them release an entirely useless piece of junk to make a fast buck. There's a lot of OGL stuff out there that just snags a quick profit for some fly-by-nighter.

But again, how is this any different than entirely new game systems from new companies? You don't know any of this, either. On the other hand, an established company that produces good material can just as easily focus on OGL (as Green Ronin did for much of its history).

That also hurts RPGing, since now people are less likely to share their homegrown stuff, when they can sell it.

I'm really unconvinced of this; the kind of people who do that now are for the most part not the kind that will take the time to try and market something, which even with OGL has a lot of time and overhead.

OGL won't help BRP much, since the majority of RPGers don't give a squat about BRP anyway. And most D&Ders don't look at and buy non D20 products.

But that's also why you won't see all that much done for it by fly-by-night artists; not enough people will buy it just because "BRP" is on the cover, and most that would be interested will keep their ear to the ground to hear if its any good.

[Atgxtg]

One big difference is that without OGL, we'd be more likely to see a game system carried in it's entirety by local stores. Allowing those of us living in the non-wrapped world to see what we are buying.
If we flip through it and don't buy it, then it doesn't sell. That will affect what my local shop does as far as restocking and future products. Likewise, it something flies off the shelf that company's stuff will be better stocked by the store.

For example, one of my local stores doesn';t carry Mongoose OGL prdocts. THe owner says they don't sell anymore. People used to buy them, trying to get some new power or something, only to find out that the rules in the product didn't work out right.

Sad shop owner also buys practically nothnig but D&D RPG stuff, since there is so much stuff that he can't keep up with D&D AND keep up wth the other RPGs anymore.

Net result. OGL turned his shop from a gaming store to a D&D store. That's bad for people who want to play games other than D&D.

[drohem]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

The problem with this is it isn't uncommon for stores to get only one copy of all but the most popular products these days. That wasn't that uncommon even with more obscure products years ago; the place I bought my copies of most BTRC rules only had one copy of each of them for example.

Well, I am so anal about my books, I would purchase two copies: one for preview and one for sale.

Well no, I would purchase three copies; the extra would be for my personal stash.

Ok, ok...really it would be four copies; the fourth would be for my pristine RPG collection.

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Ironically, this is sort of a side thread of a side thread. The idea being that one of the advantages of closed systems is that you can see what you are buying before you buy, where as with PDFs and many third party products, you are forced to buy blind.

I wonder what other regional differences might exist in RPGing?

Language?

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

One big difference is that without OGL, we'd be more likely to see a game system carried in it's entirety by local stores. Allowing those of us living in the non-wrapped world to see what we are buying.
If we flip through it and don't buy it, then it doesn't sell. That will affect what my local shop does as far as restocking and future products. Likewise, it something flies off the shelf that company's stuff will be better stocked by the store.

The problem is that even prior to 3e, many stores were getting leery of new product anyway; if you buy a bunch of copies of something and it sells badly, you've already taken a bath, but it may well not matter to future purchase as the company that produced it has already folded. So you just have to repeat the process with the next game anyway. This is pretty much a chonic problem new companies have to face, which is why many of them have given up trying to sell to most stores at all.

Sad shop owner also buys practically nothnig but D&D RPG stuff, since there is so much stuff that he can't keep up with D&D AND keep up wth the other RPGs anymore.

Net result. OGL turned his shop from a gaming store to a D&D store. That's bad for people who want to play games other than D&D.

That's an issue of the dominance of D&D, though, not the fact that they did the OGL; it was already starting to happen in some places before TSR went into collapse and sold out to WOTC.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Kloster

Language?

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

I suspect he was thinking more in terms of U.S. regionalism.

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

...
OGL did what is was supposed to do for WotC. It turned around the trend in RPGing and made D&D/D20 the predominant system again. Practically any company that is writing good D20 stuff was writing good or better non-D20 stuff before OGL.
...

It already WAS the dominant force, even before OGL!

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

...
OGL won't help BRP much, since the majority of RPGers don't give a squat about BRP anyway. And most D&Ders don't look at and buy non D20 products.

True, even if Mongoose tries hard to push the other way.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster