The things that I am griping about

[Joseph Paul]

While I too am waiting to see the new BRP book it is perhaps a little obvious that I am not of the same mind as others about the project. I would like to thank the members here for being tolerant and not lynching me right off the bat. I can understand that my own opinions could be considered heretical by some.

I have put forward that BRP could use an overhaul. I base that on what I know of various BRP iterations over the years and comparing those to games that are currently in production and in the same niche that BRP wants to be in. So looking through some of the material for GURPS 4e I find that it's combat system now includes new options that bring more realism to the fight. By realism I mean that what has been added to GURPS seems to mirror things that have actually been taught by Ancient and Medieval masters of combat. Mighty blows, flurries of blows, deceptive attacks, feints etc. are the sorts of things that I like to have as options in a combat because my studies on the subject indicate that they work. GURPS 4e hit the shelves in 2004.

In going over the RQIV draft I find things like Feint, Flurry of blows, and more kinds of parries and dodges had been added as well as the Maneuver skill. This was done in 1992 twelve years before GURPS 4e. I am irked that yet again Chaosium was on the track to better, more elegant, mechanics and could not bring them to market.

It has been stated that BRP plays an awful lot like SB5. Does anyone know if SB5 incorporates any of the RQIV advances? IIRC Riposte was mentioned. Any others?

I don't want BRP to have to play catch up to others in the universal rules sets arena and that is what it looks like. In any case I hope that this explains some of my testiness and anxiety about the upcoming release. I am going to try to be a bit more positive about the whole thing. I promise.

Joseph Paul

[badcat]

Man, that is why I am so excited about this. If this is basically the SB5/Elric! game system with bells and whistles, it has all those options and more!

Just go to Noble Knight and buy a copy of Elric! or Stormbringer 5. You will find an elegant, fast, realistic combat system that is at least as good as the ones you named...and when all the other options from BRP games such as Ringworld, RQ, etc. are available right next to those core rules, well...

Yes, you can use a flurry of blows, feint, riposte, shield rush, close, volley fire, two weapons, and everything else I can think of. It is designed so that the dodge and parry are integrated, depending on the needs of the moment. It is a game system that has been with us since 1993, and some have claimed that it is the penultimate development of BRP combat. While it does use variable armor, DEX rank only, and major wound level instead of hit locations, those are things that could be added without breaking anything. And that is what this book is all about.

You are not heretical or any such thing. You have a right to say what you think, even if I disagree with you...and vice versa. Or anybody else. But what you want may already exist. Have a look. Meanwhile, if you want to know more, by all means ask.

[Agentorange]

Burn him ! Burn him ! He speaks heresy !

Ahem

Seriously though, I think you're right, For BRP to compete it needs to be overhauled as well as compiled. From what we've heard if they incorporate the various things you've mentioned then things should be be fine. I like the idea of the optional and modular rules, people can pick and choose which bits they like and as long as everybody knows whats in or out before the game starts then everybody should be happy.

[badcat]

I don't know of one game that was improved when it was 'overhauled'. Think about it and then name one. Usually they lose whatever appeal they had and become unwieldy. GURPS, HERO, D&D; all became bloated monsters and accountants' nightmares. BRP is fine as it is, GURPS was better when it was TFT (and up through 3rd ed.), HERO was better when it was Fantasy Hero, D&D was better (except for the basic resolution) in earlier incarnations. And look at MRQ. 'Simple' isn't necessarily 'best', what I am saying is that frequently in 'improving' a game that special 'something' gets lost. When you have something good it is sometimes better to just let it be and accept whatever warts it has...most of the time, in my experience.

[Agentorange]

Originally Posted by badcat

I don't know of one game that was improved when it was 'overhauled'. Think about it and then name one. Usually they lose whatever appeal they had and become unwieldy. GURPS, HERO, D&D; all became bloated monsters and accountants' nightmares. BRP is fine as it is, GURPS was better when it was TFT (and up through 3rd ed.), HERO was better when it was Fantasy Hero, D&D was better (except for the basic resolution) in earlier incarnations. And look at MRQ. 'Simple' isn't necessarily 'best', what I am saying is that frequently in 'improving' a game that special 'something' gets lost. When you have something good it is sometimes better to just let it be and accept whatever warts it has...most of the time, in my experience.

I know what you're saying, which is why I'd be in favour of having things like flurries of blows etc etc as sidebars or optional rules. The main text is BRP as we know and love it......and people can add bits in ( or not ) as they see fit.

[Trifletraxor]

I agree. A simple base system, with optional rules to add more realism (and complication) as people see fit. If it's more similar to SB5 than RQ3 I'll probably have a lot of stuff to grow acustomed to allready. But I have heard it's well influenced by some of the RQ fixes in RQ:AiG (RQ4) too. It will be really exciting to get hold of that book!

Sverre.

[badcat]

On that we can all agree, I think.

[Atgxtg]

Oh, I think BRP certainly could use some tweaks ans upgrades. Chasoium used to tweak the game here and there. A non-lethal combat system is something of a must in this day and age, probably along with some sort of player points to adjust die rolls.

I don't thing a overhaul is a good idea, just more along the lines of Agentorange's idea of sidebar rules (or maybe in the spot rules section). Keep the core rules and just proide options.

There are a lot of neat things that have come out in games in the last 15 years that could benefit BRP. Even simple stuff like the retrat rule from GURPs or Usagi Yojimbo, skill stunts, perhaps a stun/shock mechanic, lots of things.

A lot of this could end up in setting books too. I.e. a more advanced jousting system for a middle Ages setting.

[Lord Twig]

Badcat, you really don't think D&D3.x is an improvement over 1 or 2?

I know there are a lot of things that many people don't like about D&D's current incarnation, but it is certainly better than what came before! Thac0? Non-weapon Proficiencies? Psionics?(!) D&D was an unbalanced, almost unplayable, mess! The hoard of house rules needed to make it playable was extraordinary. The only thing old AD&D has going for it is nostalgia.

The new D&D is balanced, stream-lined, and easily playable with the base rules and no house rules. It's skill system is obviously heavily influenced by BRP. It may be a bit too mechanical for some tastes, but it is definitely an improvement over what came before.

I also bought the Champions (the Hero System) up till 3rd edition and found each to be an improvement on what came before. I eventually stopped playing as that group fell apart, so I can't speak for the following editions.

[Enpeze]

Originally Posted by Lord Twig

The new D&D is balanced, stream-lined, and easily playable with the base rules and no house rules. It's skill system is obviously heavily influenced by BRP. It may be a bit too mechanical for some tastes, but it is definitely an improvement over what came before.

Funnily I just read something about the new D&D 4.0. and I most time I was amused from the commentaries of the fans and the designers about their new "baby". Among other changes they spoke about heavy concentration on four focus roles of the different character classes in 4.0.:
1. front line fighters (tanks?),
2. damage dealers (mages and the new warlock class)
3. Healers (clerics, druids) and
4. hybrids (paladins etc)

My conclusio: D&D 4.0 seems to be designed more like a World of Warcraft MMORPG than any other system out there. These guys are really great. In one Interview I heard, the WotC guy even meant that its NOT possible to use all D&D miniatures from 3.5. in 4.0. (just a few). WtF - I had to laugh that much that I nearly fell from my chair.
Great stuff which shows how money can mutate a rpg in something else. (dont know what)

After this unbelievable interviews about D&D 4.0 I am really glad to have BRP as my rpg system of choice.