Spellcasting tactics

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by badcat

I've never understood the underpowered thing. My main problem with RQ magic was the Glorantha angle; it never felt like fantasy magic as in some favorite books. No, a full-fledged Rune Priest I wouldn't call 'underpowered' anywhere. Magic World shouldn't be compared to RQ2 directly, though; it has an entirely different feel, especially when logically expanded.

I suspect its by comparison to things like D&D magic and DragonQuest magic; you could get some fairly heavy-duty Divine/Rune Magic, but it didn't tend to be a reliable killer and it rarely could effect groups; and of course it was very hard to combine some of the most ugly tricks in one caster because it tended to be cult-specific spells that were spread around multiple cults.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Not unless you had two people who could do it, or one who was very fast. After all, you're talking 3 + Dex SR for the Disruption, plus the melee SR. I'm not going to say there weren't people who could pull that off, but I think it required a Dex SR of 1, a Size SR of 1 or 0, or both.

Ah, no. Your view is being skewed by applying the 3SR penalty to everything because you didn't run declarations. By the book, if you wanted to cast a disrupt and attack and declared it, there was no 3SR delay, you just added the 1 POW for disrupt to the SR of your attack.

The same is true for bladesharp and other combat spells, and that is how Chaosium would do it in the examples.

Skipping the declaration phase completely changes the game.

We almost never changed actions in a round to interrupt a spell. More like someone would declare casting something and someone else decided that it was better if the guy didn't complete it. Sometimes we throw a disrupt of people who were going to act after us to stop them from casting, or at least make them delay for a few SR.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Ah, no. Your view is being skewed by applying the 3SR penalty to everything because you didn't run declarations. By the book, if you wanted to cast a disrupt and attack and declared it, there was no 3SR delay, you just added the 1 POW for disrupt to the SR of your attack.

Either you're misunderstanding my point, or we don't understand the rules the same way. You don't need to spend the three strike ranks if you already have the spell prepared, but by definition, you can't have a spell prepared and be attacking in melee at the same time. As such, if the attacker hits and then wants to cast the spell, he has to use the three.

The same is true for bladesharp and other combat spells, and that is how Chaosium would do it in the examples.

See above. I don't think we're talking about the same thing. If we are, our understanding is not the same. Can you point me to an example of someone using a melee attack _then_ casting a spell in the round that does not add the three strike ranks?

Skipping the declaration phase completely changes the game.

Probably true, and explains why some of our experiences are so different. Personally, I always found the _combination_ of declaration and strike ranks conceptually silly; at the point you have strike ranks, I don't see what function the declaration is really serving.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Pulling back was rarely practical, almost never if you were fighting opponents smart enough for this to be an issue; there was almost always too many of them for it to be doable. It was either Heal yourself or not. Again, keep in mind this was usually done with small Heals, so in practice it was very difficult to get it interrupted. The prep was done at the end of the prior round, and the cast first thing in a new round. That tended to mean that the prep took place after everyone's attack but any remaining archers (who usually had better things to do if there were any in play by the time this happened than focus on someone already in bad enough shape to be doing a healing), and the cast would take place before, again, anyone but archers.

I think you are assuming that your house rules were the core rules. In RQ you didn't have to prep a spell. You only had to pay the 3SR (5SR in RQ2) penalty for changing an action during a round. So I think a lot of your animosity towards disrupt is due to the 3SR penalty and the ability to "fast draw" an opposing caster with it.

Healing was usually done by a supporting character, rather than the injured one. Retrats were made viable by having a reserve to fill in the gaps. Some could follow the retreating character but then they would get double teams and that was bad news in RQ.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Not if you were firing into melee and wanted to avoid hitting your own side; one of the options for avoiding that was going off at the end of the round.

Most of our spellcasting was done out of melee. So most of our archer was shooting at out of melee targets. Generally if you are evenly number or outnumbered there is always some free target for the archer to nab.

Also, if you were really good (or had Arrow Trance) the risks of firing into melee were reduced greatly.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Speedart did; Multimissile made firing into melee _more_ of a problem. Even Speedart still left it dodgy, just less so.

Depends on how skilled the archer was.



Remember, I was talking about problems with this tactic when the healer was already in melee.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Neither of these prevents you from getting clobbered by a melee attacker while doing it, or another archer, since you're unable to parry the latter, and can only parry the former poorly.

Yes there is. The fact that you are going off first and can strike them at range, long before they reach you. Unless you get surprised at close range, you can beat any melee combatants on the attack.
Another archer IS a problem. Especiallyif he is better than you or or has better magic. INe guy with Bow 30% and Multimissle 4 can be a major pain in the side (literally).

Originally Posted by Nightshade

No you don't. You still have attackers that can close up an eviscerate you while you're doing it. You might get one set off, but if one set is good enough, you're already fighting downhill, since I watched high level opponents sneer at Multimissiles because they didn't do enough damage to penetrate their Armor plus magical protections.

I don't think so. With an average Dex the Archer will get off shots at SR 3 and SR 9. Since the melee attackers have to move to reach the archer, then their attacks are going to be delayed. Even more so if they are putting up protection before charging. If he has a DEX SR1 he will be shooting at SR1, 5, and 9. All off before the other guys get to attack.

I'd love to run my Elf with Arrow trance against the sneerers. Especially if I have moblity up. Unless the attackers mass charge the archer, they have problems. Can catch me, can hit me with a sword, but I can critical them. If they do mass charge the archer, then they are easy picking for the melee fighter on our side.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

That's what I mean by "control the battlefield"; if the area is halfway tight, the only way you can avoid them getting to you is to not have a line of fire.

If the area is tight, move to a narrow section and use the terrain to double team. Naturally, ambushes and other surprise situations throw everything out the window.

As noted, I actually have never seen anyone bother with declaration--including the author of the game. I'm not going to say whether its commonly done or not, because that I don't know, but I've never actually been in an RQ game where it was.

WoW. We used it all the time, as did everyone that I saw play the game. It makes a big difference with the way spells are cast. All the examples of magic Steve Perrin puts in the book used them. That's why a guy can cast Bladesharp 2 on his sword and still get an attack on on SR9, instead of losing his attack for the round.

That works if you've got good enough people and no one on the other side is using longspears; otherwise they just reach right past the warriors and spike the archer.

Only if the archer is an incompetent idiot. Why would he be standing so close to his screen? He can step back another yard or two, get a better field of fire, and be out of spear range. BTW, that is one of the tactics used in RuneLords, so I'm surprised you didn't see it when you were gaming with the author.

[RMS]

Originally Posted by Enpeze

IMO alone the word "blast" (if you mean the same than me with it) and magic in one sentence is not what I would want to experience acutally in a game. Many ago I used to play such games where it was usual and important that you magically "blast" enemies away and where poeple rolled with the eyes if you didnt use the magic properly. Magic was considered more as a tool to have fun and to solve adventure plots and not as a (sometimes dangerous) mystical path. But this style of play has changed considerably the last 10 years and for me (and my players) its now a slower but and more satisfying experience. Maybe its one the reasons why I prefer to play in a alternative historical setting with rare (but sometimes powerful) magic and dont care for Glorantha where everybody and his dog has his low magic.

Ironically, what I love about Glorantha is that it's essentially the real world as pictured by ancient people: the world as seen through their eyes, rather than a modern take on the world with magic tacked on. Everyone having some low magic is part of our heritage (the perception thereof - I don't believe they actually had it obviously! ), so there's some substance there not in most fantasy worlds. I draw my inspiration for fantasy worlds from history or mythology, rather than from fiction, so that's probably why I'm drawn to Glorantha so strongly. I have my own homebrew world, but it's very similar in many ways.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by RMS

Ironically, what I love about Glorantha is that it's essentially the real world as pictured by ancient people: the world as seen through their eyes, rather than a modern take on the world with magic tacked on. Everyone having some low magic is part of our heritage (the perception thereof - I don't believe they actually had it obviously! ), so there's some substance there not in most fantasy worlds. I draw my inspiration for fantasy worlds from history or mythology, rather than from fiction, so that's probably why I'm drawn to Glorantha so strongly. I have my own homebrew world, but it's very similar in many ways.

I know what you mean. Thing like the ward against the evil eye and good luck charms all stem from our ancestor's beliefs in magic.

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

...
Ah, I see part of the issue; we never paid a lick of attention to declaration. People just did their thing when their strike rank came up. If they needed to change, they just started over from that point in the round.
...

I think this is the reason why we have different experiences and tactics.
Removing the declaration phase changes completely the game. I have seen the declaration phase in all the RQ campaigns I have seen or played in (and even in some other BRP iterations).
Using the declaration phase makes changes in the MR much rarer, because the cost is VERY high (adding 3 to the current SR before starting to count SR, which means practically nothing can be done). And if it drives you in the following round, you can do it, but loose that round's actions (including parry).


Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

...

Probably true, and explains why some of our experiences are so different. Personally, I always found the _combination_ of declaration and strike ranks conceptually silly; at the point you have strike ranks, I don't see what function the declaration is really serving.

Declaration phase is WHAT you do.
SR measure WHEN you do it.

You can be fast to prepare, but slower to act, and the order is not necessarily the same.


Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

...
I don't think so. With an average Dex the Archer will get off shots at SR 3 and SR 9. Since the melee attackers have to move to reach the archer, then their attacks are going to be delayed. Even more so if they are putting up protection before charging. If he has a DEX SR1 he will be shooting at SR1, 5, and 9. All off before the other guys get to attack.
...

IIRC, you count DEX SR only once, so the DEX SR 3 archer fires at 3, then 6, then 9. The DEX SR 1 archer fires at 1, 4, 7, 10.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

...
WoW. We used it all the time, as did everyone that I saw play the game. It makes a big difference with the way spells are cast. All the examples of magic Steve Perrin puts in the book used them. That's why a guy can cast Bladesharp 2 on his sword and still get an attack on on SR9, instead of losing his attack for the round.
...

Exactly.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster