WFRP Style Fate points in BRP?

[Enpeze]

Originally Posted by soltakss

Can we pull the Wild West stuff from this thread into another thread? It's interesting but hasn't got a lot to do with Fate Points.

I think the wild west stuff has to do with the question Fate Points or not. The genre Western in its heroic and pulpy mask is not that different from other typical roleplaying genres like sword and sorcery or space opera. The approach of the story is similar, also the typical distribution of character roles etc. So if conan frees his imprisioned princess (farmers daughter) or if barbarian bran mak morn kills the evil sorcerer (or the evil rancher) at the end of every story, it does not make much difference. But the question for me is, if BRP is suited for this type of action or not. I dont think so, but other BRP fans surely do. So if I am wrong (I think I am not, but lets this assume for the discussion) it remains the question how the very essence of such a pulp hero (western, eastern, space oper or S&S) should be portrayed. Double+ PC hitpoints like I suggested or a Fate point model ala WFRP.

Another question which is important is how cinematic gaming and pulp gaming is dependent and influencing each other. Are cinematic games automatically pulp games? Are they even the same? If yes, then the BRP without Fate Points or double PC hitpoints is probably not usable for cinematic roleplaying games. (see above) the logical consequence is to use another rule system for such type games. (maybe SotC or Savage World)

[Enpeze]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Yeah. But I don't think BRP is going to lean towards pulp. If I wanted to do a pulpy western, I'd probably go with Spirit of the Century.

I totally agree with you .

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Enpeze

I totally agree with you .

I need to print that on a T-shirt.


I think the thing with FATE points and with the multi-genre nature of the new BRP is that we end up needing the options to tweak the BPR rules enough to make them work.

For example, if you run a BRP supers campaign, you need a way to tone down the inherent lethality of the BPR rules or after the first advenutre half the PCs will be dead and the rest wanted for manslaughter.

Even a "Street-level" supers campaign needs a little tweaking. In BRP if a half dozen thugs open fire on someone like the Batman, we are probably going to be short one superhero. Ganging up is very effective in BRP, and one or two bullets could drop the caped crusader (with a an 18 CON and at 210lbs/SIZ 15, Brucvie has 17 hp). IN BRP the laws of probability will result in the eventual impale or worse a critical hit and one dead hero. Fairly quickly, too.

That doesn't happen in the comics, not in over 65 years. So to run that sort of game we need a tweak that will help us simulate that kind of reality. Something like FATE points is certainly an option.

Same with most of you figures in heroic fantasy. With all the fighting, someone would have rolled an 01 against Conan and killed him.


Firearms sort of aggravate the problem, too, since the normal defenses aren't as effective. Maybe BRP will change the dodge rules. As it stands, Batman can't dodge a dozen bullets. So most the attacks are uncontested. BRP was really designed around the melee fight and the attack/parry mechanic. Without some sort of active defense against missile attacks we'll have problems.

[frogspawner]

Originally Posted by Enpeze

Double+ PC hitpoints like I suggested or a Fate point model ala WFRP.

I don't like systems that give the PCs unfair advantages over NPCs - that makes them into bullies, not the heroes they should be. Doubling their HPs would do that - just like D&D (spit). I don't know how FPs work in WFRP, but I wouldn't be keen on allowing story-fiddles or re-rolls or 'get-out-of-death free' cards. Would the players stand for it if the NPCs did that too?

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Without some sort of active defense against missile attacks we'll have problems.

Some variation on Dodge/Defence seems to me to be the way to go. It can always be ascribed to 'luck', even if 'gods' don't exist in the genre.

I currently use a skill (called 'Defence', but not working quite like the old RQ2) which is a percentage chance to avoid any damage from melee/missile/magic (or at least 10hp worth of it). And the 'skill' increases only via ticks for role-playing, so that's how PCs can get better at it than the NPCs. Obviously it's chancy and unreliable below 100%, so I'm not sure about it. But maybe that's a good thing. Any better ideas?

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by frogspawner

Some variation on Dodge/Defence seems to me to be the way to go. It can always be ascribed to 'luck', even if 'gods' don't exist in the genre.

I currently use a skill (called 'Defence', but not working quite like the old RQ2) which is a percentage chance to avoid any damage from melee/missile/magic (or at least 10hp worth of it). And the 'skill' increases only via ticks for role-playing, so that's how PCs can get better at it than the NPCs. Obviously it's chancy and unreliable below 100%, so I'm not sure about it. But maybe that's a good thing. Any better ideas?

THe difficult lies in the "Batman scenario" I mentioned earlier. Left strictly to the dice, a hero will get overwhelmed by numbers. That is pretty much the way BRP was meant to work. That's why Rune Lords were told to bring a retinue and avoid double teams.

A Luck/Fate echanic seems to fix this for heroic characters, provided that the points are limited. Too many and the PCs get delusions of godhood. Ideally they should have just enough to do what they need to do, even slightly more, but feel like they don't quite have enough.

Sort of like gambling. The points have to be common enough to be on hand, yet rare enough so that the players will hate spending them.

There are three or four options in the book. I've got a couple of "blind" suggestions:

1) The PC needs to make a luck roll and then can mark off damage against his Magic/Luck/Power Points. If a PC is out of points, he is out of Luck. This gives character some immunity but is very limited.

2) Give players points for criticals and/or special successes. Then they can spend those point later to bump or downgrade rolls by 1 success level. So in the "Batman scenario" if "Bats" has a couple of points in the bank, he could turn the odd lucky hit into a miss, or change a critical that would kill him to a normal hit.

[frogspawner]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

THe difficult lies in the "Batman scenario" I mentioned earlier. Left strictly to the dice, a hero will get overwhelmed by numbers....
1) The PC needs to make a luck roll and then can mark off damage against his Magic/Luck/Power Points....
2) Give players points for criticals and/or special successes...

Yes, sheer numbers will be overwhelming at some point. Once a character reaches 100% Defence, though, they can pretty much rely on ignoring most incoming damage. Enough to give them delusions of god-hood? I hope not - players still seem pretty nervous at that level (which I'd say is about equivalent to Rune-Lord).

I'm reluctant to give up this system unless it's proved to be broken. Thanks for the suggestions, but: #1 doesn't eliminate chanciness, adds admin and would make POW much more valuable; #2 seems to act after a hit has happened (a fine distinction, I know) but that doesn't feel quite right - and again it adds admin overhead. By all means give 'Fate Points' for critical/specials if you like - but I actually prefer to have a mechanism that rewards RP (and by not 'spending' the points when they are used, you get a tally of how much good RP you've done with that character, which I think is neat).
BTW, what are the Book options?

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by frogspawner

Yes, sheer numbers will be overwhelming at some point. Once a character reaches 100% Defence, though, they can pretty much rely on ignoring most incoming damage. Enough to give them delusions of god-hood? I hope not - players still seem pretty nervous at that level (which I'd say is about equivalent to Rune-Lord).

That depends on how Defense is handled. In most versions of BRP I'm familiar with, it had to be broken up amidst attackers in some way or another, so numbers quickly diluted it badly.

[Atgxtg]

Another way to do "Hero Points" that would not get out of hand.

Easy, each point costs a skill check. Paid at the end of the adventure. So if someone wants to use 5 or 6 points they have to uncheck 5 or 6 boxes at the end of the night.


For frogspawner,
The use affect after the hit is good with limited points. Basically the PCs will only use them when they count. What a couple of games have done is force the PC to justify the effect. Things like hitting a cigarette case, or a graze or whatever.

If you want the PCs to use the effect before the hit, then the PCs will need more points to allow for the ones that will be "wasted" on misses. You can still use option #2 or the new option #3 before the roll.

[Simlasa]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

THe difficult lies in the "Batman scenario" I mentioned earlier. ...

I agree, but for different reasons...
Games that try to 're-enact' cinematic genres... Superhero comics... have the burden of trying to quantify and normalize a set of rules for something that inherently has no rules... the rules of those books/movies/comics has always been that the protaganist will have whatever power/resource/knowledge/skills he needs at the moment to make the plot progress how the author wants it too.
The only reason any hero in those sources gets defeated is because he was meant to for dramatic purposes.

Trying to mimic such stories, and still have the game be unpredictable/exciting can be a bit of a tall order and seems to often fall into just letting players live out their power-geek fantasies... basically being bullies.

[Atgxtg]

[quote=Simlasa;5807]I agree, but for different reasons...
Games that try to 're-enact' cinematic genres... Superhero comics... have the burden of trying to quantify and normalize a set of rules for something that inherently has no rules... the rules of those books/movies/comics has always been that the protaganist will have whatever power/resource/knowledge/skills he needs at the moment to make the plot progress how the author wants it too.
The only reason any hero in those sources gets defeated is because he was meant to for dramatic purposes. [qOUTE]

Yup. THe hero wins because he is the hero.

Originally Posted by Simlasa

Trying to mimic such stories, and still have the game be unpredictable/exciting can be a bit of a tall order and seems to often fall into just letting players live out their power-geek fantasies... basically being bullies.

Somewhat. IN essence this is just what RPGs try to do all the time. People rarely want to play accountants and cashiers. So RPGs are almost always trying to dance along this tightrope. Just how they attempt it is what makes one game different from another. Just about every RPG is biased towards the players, and with good reason. Running a group of NPCs is a non-issue.


IMO perhaps the most successful at doing cinematic style was probably the old Bond RPG. The hero points let PCs bend the rules a little, but were rare enough that the players couldn't sit back and play on "cruise control".