WFRP Style Fate points in BRP?

[Simlasa]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Boy, you must hate BRP then. That's it's entire combat system. A guy get's attacked and then he rolls to parry and reverse the hit.

I dunno... it's all tied up in how I imagine it... I see a 'miss' as that swing/attack that never would have connected, part of the dance and shuffle of combat... but I see the 'hit' as a successful swing/attack... that remains successful if parried... just that it got blocked.
It otherwise would have connected and done damage... you saw it was coming and knew you had to do something to stop it.
It doesn't 'feel' like a reversal of the success of the attack.
Fate points... at least the way I've seen them used... seem to turn that 'hit' into a 'miss' for no in game reason at all.
I don't like that reversal.
If he were to spend from the 'luck pool' to boost his chance of a successful parry... I'd be fine with that idea.
It's a personal gripe... a fine line... I don't claim to be logical.

Yes but the problem with that is that it sort of negates the major reason for the luck pool. That is saving your bacon. "Oh, I should have spent the Luck point before the sniper ambushed me and shot me dead? How was I supposed to know there was a sniper?"

I wouldn't ordinarily spring a death trap like that on a PC without some chance to spot the sniper or otherwise suspect and make some sort of 'spot hidden' roll... which, accordingly, the 'luck pool' could be used to boost.

Ditto you example about looking really dumb. Generally speaking it isn't the hard moves that make you look dumb. It is when you are doing something easy when you trip over your sword and embarrass yourself. Also, since you don't know when you are likely to trip over your sword, spending in advance basically means not spending the points and being caught with egg on your face.

I'm mostly thinking of the big dramatic moments, when you go up against the arch-villain you've been tracking for a whole campaign... you KNOW you don't want to fail at that point... for the good of the story and the other PCs.
If it's the first day out and you get into some dumb fight with a street vendor and you fall on your sword... it's comic relief... that character was a red herring in the story... never meant to be the 'big cheese'... write him off and make up a new one.
Kind of joking there... just kinda.

There are a few of options other than a "reroll."

First is to spend the points when you would parry or dodge. For instance, rather than using a point to reroll or make a Luck save, you could just use a point to improve the result of your next dodge or parry roll.

Like I said, totally fine with that sort of thing...

Another option would be to spend the points after the hit to adjust the damage roll before it is made. For instance maybe a point turns a hit into minimum damage, or downgrades a special or critical down a grade. So that way a guy who take a critical hit from a spear and "knows" the other guy will be getting max impale damage could spend a point to downgrade the effect to only an impale, giving him a chance to survive the roll. Two could could turn the hit into a normal damage, and three would just result in minimum damage.
Again the key thing is to apply the effects before the roll. Make sure you give the player the chance to spend the points, but if they pass they don't get to go back. That way you are never going back and reversing anything.

Pretty much okay with that sort of thing as well... though I think I'd want the 'economy' of such points to discourage relying on them too heavily... depending on the type of game we were in (more for James Bond, less for gritty fantasy, none for film noir).

I think the main thing I wanna keep is the feeling of danger...
If I've got a pool of points that I KNOW allows me to do any dumb thing, see what happens, then reverse the outcome... I lose that sense of risk.
If I've got a pool of points that increase my chances of succeeding/surviving... but still with a leaves potential for disaster danger... then I still keep the feeling of risk.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Trifletraxor

Parry comes first! (doesn't it? )

SGL.

. Some version of RQ/BRP require that you declare parries and some let you react to attacks. I've never seen one where parries came before the attack. Declared before the attack was rolled, but not before the attack.

Usually it's the :
"He swings"
"I"ll try to parry!"

Method.

So,
"He Swings"
"I'll parry and spend a point to bump up my roll by one grade!"

shouldn't disrupt the flow of the game.

[Triff]

Jepp, that was what I meant. The parry is rolled before the attack is.

SGL.

[frogspawner]

Originally Posted by Simlasa

How would you determine when something was 'significant'?

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

I'd think that would be the player's call. A classic exmaple would be.
Spend a point to get a better result when selling your airspeeder? No.
Spend a Point to make sure your proton torpedoes blow up the Death Star. YES!!

Quite. It'd be up to the player to decide when to spend the point(s). However I'm intending to only allow it for 'luckily' escaping death, not just improving any old rolls* - and that is a GM decision. (*The Death Star shot could be argued, though - given they'd die if he didn't make it. But maybe Leia's roll, not Luke's...?).

Just one roll of 'Defence' ability, I think, but xPOW spent on it (decided before rolling). If it comes up, the damage is reduced by 10 (20 for special) (or some other sort of bonus for non-damaging deadly stuff?). A 'lucky escape' would normally be interpreted as riding the blow, involving a 5ft knockback, or possibly the shot hitting that bible/flask they always carry in their breast pocket...

But not going back in time and changing things that had already 'happened' (i.e. been rolled). Because, yes, it's all about how it feels. Is that ok?

Originally Posted by Simlasa

I think the main thing I wanna keep is the feeling of danger...

Absolutely.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Triff

Jepp, that was what I meant. The parry is rolled before the attack is.

SGL.

I've never played it that way. More like the parry is declared before the attack is rolled, but the parry isn't rolled before. Usually we would roll attack then parry, or both at the same time.
All the examples I have seen in RQ and BRP books have the attacker roll first.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Simlasa

I dunno... it's all tied up in how I imagine it... I see a 'miss' as that swing/attack that never would have connected, part of the dance and shuffle of combat... but I see the 'hit' as a successful swing/attack... that remains successful if parried... just that it got blocked.
It otherwise would have connected and done damage... you saw it was coming and knew you had to do something to stop it.
It doesn't 'feel' like a reversal of the success of the attack.
Fate points... at least the way I've seen them used... seem to turn that 'hit' into a 'miss' for no in game reason at all.


I don't like that reversal.

We one game reason is that the guy is just lucky. I think we have all had situation where we should have gotten hurt but didn't. From personal experience I've used a knife to cut things "wrong side down" a few times. I even had my hand on the sharp side to apply pressure for cutting through cheese, and when I realized what I had done, looked to find that I had miraculously escaped unharmed.

Originally Posted by Simlasa

If he were to spend from the 'luck pool' to boost his chance of a successful parry... I'd be fine with that idea.

So I can assume that doing so with a dodge is along the same line of thinking, too? THe guy ducks or jumps back and avoids the blow.

Originally Posted by Simlasa

It's a personal gripe... a fine line... I don't claim to be logical.

Well, I can't argue with that.

Originally Posted by Simlasa

I wouldn't ordinarily spring a death trap like that on a PC without some chance to spot the sniper or otherwise suspect and make some sort of 'spot hidden' roll... which, accordingly, the 'luck pool' could be used to boost.

Would you tell the player to make a spot hidden roll? Or would you roll it in secret as a GM. If you tell the player to make a spot roll you are sort of giving him information for no game reason, since is he fails the roll he shouldn't had a reason to become "alert". If you are rolling for him in secret, how can he spend points?

But the "bang your dead" thing isn't just confined to ambushes. There are quite a few times when things could happen logically, but don't due to some funky way that the rules work. For instance, in the game leather armor will never stop a dagger. A character can never get grazed by a bolt action rifle (30-06/7.62mm that rolls 2D6+4 damage), for 1 point. Or get up from a fall unscathed. Or that a man can't hit a beat without getting an autokill. Or a blunt weapon inflicting no damage on an unarmored man.


In real life, all these things happen. They can't in the game due to the way dice work. Luck points can help address a flaw in the game. Every couple of years there is another story about some sky jumper whose chute doesn't open and he somehow survives the 20D6. There is no in game reason for that to happen in BRP, but there are some real life reasons that account for it. Since the game can't model everything, something like luck points help to do so.

Originally Posted by Simlasa

I'm mostly thinking of the big dramatic moments, when you go up against the arch-villain you've been tracking for a whole campaign... you KNOW you don't want to fail at that point... for the good of the story and the other PCs.
If it's the first day out and you get into some dumb fight with a street vendor and you fall on your sword... it's comic relief... that character was a red herring in the story... never meant to be the 'big cheese'... write him off and make up a new one.
Kind of joking there... just kinda.

I'm thinking of both. Part of the problem with the latter scenario is that the street vendor thing can come up at any time. Dice a fickle. People play to have fun. If you were watching a film and Aragon tripped over his sword and died at the beginning of Lord of the Rings it might be funny, but having the player write up a new character and reworking the adventure to fit in another character isn't. It bogs the game down as the GM retcons the story and the player comes up with another stranger whom the other character would have no reason to deal with.

But in an established campaign, it can be worse than funny. What if Aragon tripped over his sword one night while his army is under siege. He isn't doing anything big at the moment, but is he skewers himself tonight, he won't get the chance to reach the big dramatic moment.

Originally Posted by Simlasa

Pretty much okay with that sort of thing as well... though I think I'd want the 'economy' of such points to discourage relying on them too heavily... depending on the type of game we were in (more for James Bond, less for gritty fantasy, none for film noir).

Oh, I'd see a couple for Film Noir. Despite how dark the setting looks. Philip Marlowe manages to survive through even story. Considering how many times he manages to survive despite people having the drop on him.

And I thing the "economy" of such points is the kay factor to making them work. Too many and the game loses any challenge. Too few and the players probably won't have them when they need them.

I also prefer a system where the points get used up and must be replenished somehow over systems where the points are automatically refreseh each session or adventure. It makes the players less likely to "make sure" that they use up all their points, before they "lose" them.

Originally Posted by Simlasa

I think the main thing I wanna keep is the feeling of danger...
If I've got a pool of points that I KNOW allows me to do any dumb thing, see what happens, then reverse the outcome... I lose that sense of risk.
If I've got a pool of points that increase my chances of succeeding/surviving... but still with a leaves potential for disaster danger... then I still keep the feeling of risk.

I agree. That is why I think not all "Hero Points" are created equal. My absolute favorite method is the Hero Point system from Bond. 1 point shifts the quality rating (think success/failure level) by one step. Bond also had 4 quality ratings rather than three success levels.

What that did was make it progressively harder to negate a good roll, or to force a good result, but fairly easy to tweak reality a little. Changing the equivalent of a critical to a miss required 4 points, and this in a game where Bond has 13. Bond also limited the points. Once spent they were gone, at least until you earned some more.

Every so often a character would build up a handful of points and feel a bit cocky, but it was fun because we all knew it wouldn't last for long, and one the points were spent it was back to normal. SO if the player wanted to rush across an open field while some goon sprayed .50 caliber bullets at him, well, he'd would be doing it again any time soon. If he pulled it off.

[AikiGhost]

Perhaps if you wanted to use MPs as fate points you could do a Marvel Supers FASERIP style "I will make a special" type system.

You declare before an important roll what kind of success you want to make, then roll the dice, for each 10 points you miss by you spend 1mp, and even if you succeed you spend the minimum 1mp for the roll.

[OooMatron]

Originally Posted by Jason Durall

The acronym of PP was unfortunate, so they're power points throughout the manuscript.

That's a shame. It would have amused me to hear my players ask if they can "spend a PP".

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by OooMatron

That's a shame. It would have amused me to hear my players ask if they can "spend a PP".

You could also save character sheets and hand out pennies to the players to "spend" when they use POWer.

[Lord Twig]

You know really I don't see calling Power Points PP as an issue. D&D does it for Psionic Power Points (PP) and no one has even mentioned it that I have ever noticed. Honestly when reading my mind just replaces PP with Power Points subconsciously.