WFRP Style Fate points in BRP?

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

One of the things one has to keep in mind for this sort of mechanic is that, barring unusual settings, its not an in-character resource;

"Use the Force, Luke."

Originally Posted by Nightshade

that is, the PCs don't know from anything about "spending luck" or the like. As such one of the things the GM has to keep in mind is that even when he's given the resource to an NPC, using it is entirely at his discretion, and its not playing the character badly not to use it when the GM thinks it would be better not to, because the character, in character, doesn't have any control over it. Its functionally a metagame resource (though sometimes with some in-game rationale).

Amen. Otherwise all the little flunkies, minion, extras and stromtropers would tap their vast pool of "warp reality" points and the sheer imbalance would doom the PCs.

That's why I liked the James Bond game's take on them. PCs got Hero Points, because they acted like heroes, saving the world, etc. Other people didn't get them because they weren't heroes. Heroic NPCs being the rare exception. In fact, in Bond if the guy you were fighting starts spending Hero Points, you're probably shooting at the wrong guy.

Villains got Survival points, and did their major henchmen, and to a lesser extent flunkies. That was to prevent things from becoming to easy or an adventure ending prematurely should PC decide to just "blast Goldfinger's Head off" five minutes into the mission.

[frogspawner]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Villains got Survival points, and did their major henchmen, and to a lesser extent flunkies. That was to prevent things from becoming to easy or an adventure ending prematurely should PC decide to just "blast Goldfinger's Head off" five minutes into the mission.

Or if you restrict everyone's Hero/Survival/Fate points to only defensive uses it also avoids that sort of effect (and it's 'fair' on NPCs, if you care about that sort of thing).

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by frogspawner

Or if you restrict everyone's Hero/Survival/Fate points to only defensive uses it also avoids that sort of effect (and it's 'fair' on NPCs, if you care about that sort of thing).

Not really, since the players can decide to do that anyway without Hero Points. In Bond, if you use the right equipment with the right setup and have some degree of Fire Combat skill playing sniper is easy.

For one thing you can take aim, and get bonuses to attack. Since damage done is based on the Quality Rating (think BRP Success Level), increasing skill increases damage. Then there is the surprise bonus, which nearly doubles skill. After that you can take a penalty to hit to inflict more damage.

So get within about 300m with a decent sniper rifle and go for a head shot and it isn't tough. Get two or three PCs to do it and even a big villain will go down quick.


But in that game, that might not do you any good. Especially if you don't have a reason to shoot him yet. Blowing him away for cheating a golf isn't going to go down well with MI6.


Besides, being able to spend the points to improve rolls allows heroes to get off those badly needed "defuse the bomb or we're all dead" rolls. Plus you can occasionally fleece a bad guy at the tables and then steal his girlfriend.

IMO the real key to things is that the points don't regenerate. So if the players go overboard and waste them all early showing off, they won't have any for when they need them.

[frogspawner]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

In Bond, if you use the right equipment with the right setup and have some degree of Fire Combat skill playing sniper is easy.
...
Besides, being able to spend the points to improve rolls allows heroes to get off those badly needed "defuse the bomb or we're all dead" rolls. Plus you can occasionally fleece a bad guy at the tables and then steal his girlfriend.

But IMO they shouldn't be able to make shooting the bad guys even easier just by spending Hero Points. Ditto fleecing, girlfriend-stealing and whatever they should do on their own, I'd say. (Maybe in Bond it's ok - I guess that's more like story-telling).
The "do this or we die" thing is defensive, though, so that's fine. Just like Luke's Death Star shot...

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by frogspawner

But IMO they shouldn't be able to make shooting the bad guys even easier just by spending Hero Points. Ditto fleecing, girlfriend-stealing and whatever they should do on their own, I'd say. (Maybe in Bond it's ok - I guess that's more like story-telling).
The "do this or we die" thing is defensive, though, so that's fine. Just like Luke's Death Star shot...

Often the do or die thing isn't defensive. Hero Points do work out fine in Bond, but yeah that's Bond. Allowing the players to use them to improve rolls also adds to the fun. It adds to the tension too, since a PC can be tempted to "waste" them on things that they might want to do, but don't need to do. So if you spend all your points looking cool in the 'teaser" you may not have any left for the end when you storm the bad guy's HQ.

The other thing is that Survival Points/defensive spending can only be done to rolls made against the NPCs, not rolls that they make themselves. So the way that game works, Luke couldn't use survival points to "blow up" the Death Star. He would need Hero Points for that. Same for a character who falls off a cliff and tries to grab onto a ledge, or a character bitten by a poisonous snake who has to make a roll to resist the poison. Or for a character to keep his Aston Martin from smacking into a tractor-trailer who involved in a high speed chase on the motorway.

And there are even a few other uses for them. Like using them to slighter alter the game world in a believable way. For instance, if a PC is escaping from a castle, he might be able to convince the GM to let him find a saber or mace on the wall over the fireplace by spending a Hero Point.

That is part of how the game restricts them. There are so many neat ways to use them that it takes a little self-discipline not to waste them. You don;t get a lot. Plus, unlike most other games that use them, they don't get refreshed after each adventure. So players never feel like they got them to spare.

I've played quite a few games that have hero points in some fashion, Bond, Star Wars D6, Star Wars D20, TImelords, FATE, Star Trek (LUG), Top Secret, Spirit of the Century, CORPS, Star Trek (Decipher), EABA, HeroQuest, L5R, DC Heroes, and several others. The Bond systems method is my favorite. It is also the most "stand on you own two legs" version of them. While the BOnd game gives the PCs a few edges, it also dumps things right on the PCs shoulders. No high level characters to come along and bail the PCs out, or do their work for them (well, there is an exception for if the PCs screw up really badly and the world is about to be destroyed, simply so the GM can keep a campaign running).


Even a lot of the things that you can do with the points but shouldn't have thier own drawbacks. Killing people is sometimes necessary, but frowned upon, and has a few in game drawbacks. Getting sent to jail is one. Escalation from a rival sevice is another. And then there is always the risk of raising your Fame total and making it more difficult to keep a cover.

And the Villians' Survival points do help to offset the PCs Hero Points. If PC spends a few points to up the quality of his shot and the villain spends a few to drop the quality back down, the PC has just spent valuable points for no effect. And those points are gone for good.

Plus you get a lot of those shoot the bad guy before he launches the nuke type of endings.

[Ars Mysteriorum]

This may be a bit off-topic, but speaking of WFRP...

It's dying! Black Industries is closing shop! Ugh... I cannot believe it!

I've started a topic regarding this outrageous travesty in the Gamer's Cavern.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Plus you get a lot of those shoot the bad guy before he launches the nuke type of endings.

Yeah, honestly, the general mechanic isn't just there to prevent inappropriate and random death; its to prevent anticlimax, which is one thing that dice in the game sometimes lead to. Its not a very simulationist result, but then, the problems its designed to address wouldn't be a problem to a hardcore simulationist group in the first place.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Yeah, honestly, the general mechanic isn't just there to prevent inappropriate and random death; its to prevent anticlimax, which is one thing that dice in the game sometimes lead to. Its not a very simulationist result, but then, the problems its designed to address wouldn't be a problem to a hardcore simulationist group in the first place.

Bingo. This risk on random rolls is that sometimes the random results are not what anyone wanted. Especially as the source material that RPGs are basided on, heroic fiction of one form or another, heavily relies on situations where the hero is over matched and yet through faith, virtue, cleverness, and force of will, manages to succeed. It's good drama and good storytelling. It is just bad from the view of probabilities.

Hero Points help to account for this and give it a game mechanic, and one that really is just as viable as rolling dice. Generally, most RPGs tend to make things too random to begin with, in order to promote excitement.

Another tact that RPGs can use to try and simulate the "overmathed hero" situation is to lie like hell, and that is not always a great idea either. Many RPG scenarios make claims about how bad the situation is and how overmatched the characters are, then run a bunch of encounters at the PCs with adversaries who are markedly inferior. A good example are Clone Troopers and Stormtroopers in Star Wars. They are supposed to be some sort of elite fighting force and good shots. They even managed to wipe out most of the Jedi order. Yet they can't shoot straight when fighting against a major characters, and only managed to hit one "PC" (Leia, twice.) in six films.

That sort of results just don't happen often enough with random die rolls to match the setting.

The same hold true with other settings. Elric, Lancelot or Robin Hood, would all go down much too often for comfort.


Plus the RQ/BRP critical and fumble chances, while reasonably low and quite workable for PCs, start to warp things when you start doing things in greater numbers. Run a big enough party and you will generally see a PC take critical every fight. Thats where the points help.

[frogspawner]

OK (following on from a point raised in the Balance thread), would it be a valid use of Fate Points to get out of an unfavourable Geas (assuming FP were being used in such a setting) ?

[Trifletraxor]

Originally Posted by frogspawner

OK (following on from a point raised in the Balance thread), would it be a valid use of Fate Points to get out of an unfavourable Geas (assuming FP were being used in such a setting) ?

Depends on what Fate Points (fatigue points?) means. I would say it should cost a POW at least to get out of one (shift up or down, or otherwise change it), as the gifts have that much and impact.

Like when or chaos group got hold of a bunch of vials that gave chaotic features - a good one on 1-4 and a bad one on 5-6 on the 1d6. Man that was fun! It went approximately that way with the group too. 4 increased their powers considerably, 2 became roaming monsters!

SGL.