WFRP Style Fate points in BRP?

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Simlasa

yeah, the number of instant kills for guns (outside of assasination/execution type situations) oughtta be low... with an aftermath of having to deal with the non-deadly wounds that might turn deadly if not tended to.

I'm cool with hit locations for helping that along... rather than blocking the blows with fate points.

THat would be my favored way of handling it. I did something like that a few months back for a home brew BRP variant. I do not if others would like it though.


What I did was for wounded characters roll to see how long they had before the wound did them in. The roll was 1D100+CON, and the time was dependent on severity of the wound. Minor wounds could be days, more serious wounds, hours, and then minutes. Proper treatment could prevent the fatality.

[Enpeze]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

It isn't that BRP is too deadly to be historically accurate, it is that BRP is killing people too quickly to be historically accurate.

Sorry my fault. I meant exactly this. I used just the wrong words which gave the opposite impression. Maybe I should better proofread my posts before sending.

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

In BRP once a wound has been inflicted, damage rolled, and the effects applied that particular "injury" is over. The player doesn't have to worry about it coming back to haunt him. There is little chance for a delayed fatality. Basically in BRP if you can get someone to a Doctor, the wound wasn't lethal in the first place. There is a bunch of info on terminal wound ballistics and it all points to dispelling the myth that guns usually kill right away.

This is correct. But I see BRP rather as skeleton and not as "world simulator" capable to simulate every situation. (like IMO the makers of Gurps see their 500p rulemonster)
No, BRP provides the rule tools to simulate many situations but it does not prevent the players from time to time to use common sense for solving a problem and making house rules or adhoc rules. And I think that problems like "haunting injuries", gangrene etc. are falling in this cathegory. Only because they are not adressed yet in the BRP rules, this means not that they should not be part of a BRP game, especially a non-cinematic.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Enpeze

Sorry my fault. I meant exactly this. I used just the wrong words which gave the opposite impression. Maybe I should better proofread my posts before sending.

Ah. That is one thing about the net. Sometimes two people say the same thing differently and it takes time for them to notice.



G. & D. Cook & Company
This is correct. But I see BRP rather as skeleton and not as "world simulator" capable to simulate every situation. (like IMO the makers of Gurps see their 500p rulemonster)
No, BRP provides the rule tools to simulate many situations but it does not prevent the players from time to time to use common sense for solving a problem and making house rules or adhoc rules. And I think that problems like "haunting injuries", gangrene etc. are falling in this cathegory. Only because they are not adressed yet in the BRP rules, this means not that they should not be part of a BRP game, especially a non-cinematic.[/quote]



I don't mind seeing stuff like that in a supplement. Especially since BRP seems to be going heavy for the "Optional Rules" idea. That way those who want them can have them and those who don't can ignore them. I still think we may need to tweak the initial damage/lethality a bit to make it all work.

One big thing about BRP is that the combat mechanic is basically attack vs. defense (parry). Dodge is usually limited. If character can get multiple dodges that would also help. While you can't dodge a bullet, you can make yourself a harder target.

I did up a set of "spot rules" for the West, and think I'll see about adapting my homebrew BRP variant rules for delayed fatalities and something for infections, and perhaps some modifiers for moving and shooting at a moving target.

BTW, in the "spot rules" I did introduce a "low powered" version of Fate points. A character who makes a Luck roll can transfer damage to his POW/Magic Points. It might let someone avoid a hit or two, or turn a major wound into a minor one, but is still fairly limited in effect. The 1 for 1 cost also keeps it from turning into a critical stopper.

And a character could literally have his Luck "run out."

[Enpeze]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

The problem is that solution creates its own problems, and doesn't address the fact that even in a _non_ cinematic game there's problems here; almost any Western game is going to expect a shootout a time or two unless its completely noncombat oriented, and as I've noted in the past, BRP either is overly forgiving or unforgiving; there's not a lot of middle ground. Without either hit locations or some type of major wound system, its overly forgiving to single strikes/shots, which are often simply incapable of killing someone; with them, a single bit of bad luck and you're done. The lack of armor and paranormal healing in a setting inflates the latter enormously.

Forgiving without hitlocations? Do you mean that its not easy to kill a person with a single shot? Hm. its a little bit more difficult I agree (not regarding impales which are often deadly), but isnt this like in reality, where the most victims of pistol shootings survive a single hit ?(only to die of gangrene) Another story is a rifle, of course. But rifles seem also in BRP very deadly. Eg. 2d8 assault rifle are often enough capable to kill with a single hit a 12 HP person. I am not a wound specialist, but this seems not unplausible.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

So unless people are really prepared for sudden death any time a combat starts with firearms (in fact, unless they expect it) this is going to be a problem even in avowedly non-cinematic games.

For cinematic games I agree - never seen Bruce Willis dying suddenly during a fire combat. (only John Travolta but this another story) So I assume not do die in such a miserable way belongs to a real cinematic game.

But why should sudden death be a problem in non-cinematic environments (aka reality)? Or do you want to introduce a third type of game called "reality without sudden PC death"?

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Enpeze

Forgiving without hitlocations? Do you mean that its not easy to kill a person with a single shot? Hm. its a little bit more difficult I agree (not regarding impales which are often deadly), but isnt this like in reality, where the most victims of pistol shootings survive a single hit ?(only to die of gangrene) Another story is a rifle, of course. But rifles seem also in BRP very deadly. Eg. 2d8 assault rifle are often enough capable to kill with a single hit a 12 HP person. I am not a wound specialist, but this seems not unplausible.

Enpeze,

I think I agree with him. Without either a hit location system or a major wound system the chances of dropping someone with a light pistol are close to nil. Even CoC5's "Shock" roll makes a big difference.


I think a lot of these system disputes boil down to a gap between which derivative of RQ people have preferred over the years. Depending upon what game and which edition people play really determines what you rules say. Overall I think we are all just playing with different rulebooks.


For instance, in CoC5, a guy with 15 hit points can risk shock by taking 8 or more points in one hit, so a 8 point hit is needed to be able to "Stop" someone, a 13 point hit needed for an auto-unconscious result (2 hp), and 15 points is needed for a kill. CoC1 doesn't have the "Stun" rule so 13 is the magic number. In RQ3, you can take someone out of the fight (for the most part) with a 5 point hit to the head or abdome or a 6 point hit to the chest. You can kill then with twice that.

So, you can drop someone with 15hp in RQ3 with a 5 point hit, someone in CoC1 with a 13 point hit, and someone in CoC5 with a 8 point hit. To kill then you must do 15 points in CoC1 and COC5, but only 10 points in RQ.

So RQ is potentially 50% more lethal than CoC. That's a big difference.


I'm starting to think that the disputes over damage values comes down to this. THose who are RQ3 fans (c'est moi) are looking at the damages from a RQ perspective, while those coming from general HP/major wound games like SB ans CoC see the higher value.


soltakss actually picked up on this awhile back, mentioning how he liked the two damage values (CoC and persumably RQ)that I gave the Peacemaker. THat wasn't my intention, but he was right.

It is probably one reason why Badcat and I don't see eye to eye on firearm damages.

For cinematic games I agree - never seen Bruce Willis dying suddenly during a fire combat. (only John Travolta but this another story) So I assume not do die in such a miserable way belongs to a real cinematic game.

But why should sudden death be a problem in non-cinematic environments (aka reality)? Or do you want to introduce a third type of game called "reality without sudden PC death"?

It depends on the frequency of sudden death. Again I'm pointing to the difference in systems. For a guy with 12 hp the "instant death threshold" with hit locations is only 8 as opposed to 12 in CoC. For a guy with 18 hp the "IDT" is 12 as opposed to 18.

Maybe the two sets of western damages is the right way to go, after all. Or some sort of damage class/sliding scale. So a 1D6 firearm in RQ could be a 1D10 in CoC or some such.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Based on real world data, especially with pistols. Instant kills are within the critical hit chance. Delayed kills, on the other hand are over 90%. That is, nearly any wound will kill you if you don't get it treated properly, the variable is really how long it takes to do so.

Of course that isn't a unique problem here; there are a lot of thrusting wounds that almost certainly land in the same category, for much the same reasons.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Enpeze,

I think I agree with him. Without either a hit location system or a major wound system the chances of dropping someone with a light pistol are close to nil. Even CoC5's "Shock" roll makes a big difference.

He wasn't the only one to have an incoherent post. I'm actually with a leg on both sides here: without a hit location or major wounds system, some guns are simply _too harmless_. The classic is things like derringers, which used very small caliber bullets. Even with an impale, its way too easy with just a big pool of hit points for it not to be possible to kill someone outright with the gun (the possible exception is with some forms of the crit system which double against unarmored targets, but I tend to have issues with that approach by itself as it produces wierd artifacts where someone with a really trivial level of armor suddenly has a _massive_ advantage over someone without). Even impales don't show any sort of reliable lethality with many lighter pistol rounds.

On the other end, once you do get into hit locations or major wounds, it can be rather too _easy_ to die outright (this is aside your issue of deaths from repeated shots, by the by; I'm just talking on a shot by shot basis) for the good of a campaign. Part of this, as you note, is that BRP doesn't address eventual lethality at all, so a hit is either immediately lethal or it isn't.

So RQ is potentially 50% more lethal than CoC. That's a big difference.

Yeah. But of course I tend to want my cake and eat it too here; I want the basic system to be quasi-realistic, but I also know that having too much PC fatality is usually not a good thing for most campaigns.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Of course that isn't a unique problem here; there are a lot of thrusting wounds that almost certainly land in the same category, for much the same reasons.

Quite true. About the only real reason why casualty rates were higher in the Ancient and Medieval world was that wholesale slaughter and massacres were more common. Any weapon can have a 100% mortality rate if you work at it.

A spear thrust might even be more lethal than a .38 bullet. It makes a bigger wound and causes more bleeding.

The same is true with the 50% difference in what it takes to drop someone due to hit locations.

The main reason why I am adressing it now is that with more archaic weaponry the combat dynamic allows for defense in the form of a parry or dodge, with armor soaking up some of the damage. With firearms we have no body armor to speak of (okay, there were two companies that make flak vests during the Civil War, and a couple of improve stove-plate situations), and Dodge is usually of limited effect if any, depending on what BRP game you are running.


Since "bang-your dead" isn't much fun to play. Especially when a player might not be able to do anything about it (like when the other guy has a higher DEX and Dodge doesn't work against bullets).

[soltakss]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

soltakss actually picked up on this awhile back, mentioning how he liked the two damage values (CoC and persumably RQ)that I gave the Peacemaker. THat wasn't my intention, but he was right.

With Hit Locations and Without Hit Locations. Not necessarily RQ and CoC but close enough historically.

The "How can I kill an elephant in one shot?" problem in CoC is due to CoC not having Hit Locations and an elephant having bucketloads of Hit Points. Give it Hit Locations and it becomes killable, although it is still difficult and requires a good shot. Hit Locations are Good. Everyone should use Hit Locations. Look deep into my eyes . Everyone should use Hit Locations ...

As a matter of interest, what was your intention? Just to show the CoC stats and a different damage for BRP?

[soltakss]

Of course, being easy to kill is the least of the reasons to have Fate Points/Hero Points/Whatever-They-are-Called-In-BRP-Points.

Using them as Plot Points is one of my favourite reasons - Damn, we've been caught by the City Guard and locked up in a prison. But, wait, look, isn't that guard the very same one we rescued from bandits last month? (1 Plot Point) Isn't that guard the brother of the person we rescued from bandits last month? (2 Plot Points) Don't you remember when we rescued those people from bandits last month, isn't that guard one of them? (Never actually did it but seems like a reasonable backstory event - 4 Plot Points) Isn't that a nasty storm? What if a lightning bolt came and smashed the wall down for us? (8 Plot Points)

Rerolling a really bad or unfortunate roll to help gameplay in crisis situations is also another useful way of using them. I even allow them to be used when rolling for Experience - it makes the players happy and soaks them up quite nicely.

Of course, I fully understand how people can think of them as cheating in some way, as you are rerolling dice or affecting what actually happened. But, quite a lot of the time the same people that dislike Fate/Hero Points have no problems with rolling dice secretly or fudging dice rolls. But, that's not cheating!!!