WFRP Style Fate points in BRP?

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by soltakss

With Hit Locations and Without Hit Locations. Not necessarily RQ and CoC but close enough historically.

The "How can I kill an elephant in one shot?" problem in CoC is due to CoC not having Hit Locations and an elephant having bucketloads of Hit Points. Give it Hit Locations and it becomes killable, although it is still difficult and requires a good shot. Hit Locations are Good. Everyone should use Hit Locations. Look deep into my eyes . Everyone should use Hit Locations ...

Elephant are barely killable without hit locations. You just need an impale and a 3D6+4 elephant gun.

I think the difficult with firearms is that BRP sort of glosses over the most significant factor in firearm damage. Shot placement. We do have differernt levels of success but since only 20% of success are specials or better it isn't something that a character can control.

One idea I was thinking of was to allow a character who tooke the called shot penalty to boost his damage. Instead of just shooting the elephant, aiming for the heart. THe same who be useful for something like a pocket pistol. Maybe rolling at half ability for aiming but getting an impale.

Originally Posted by soltakss

As a matter of interest, what was your intention? Just to show the CoC stats and a different damage for BRP?

NO, to show why there seems to be a split over firearm damage ratings. What can stop someone with hit locations and what can stop someone without are really too different things.

From some of the posts I've been reading I starting to see that the RQ players and the CoC/Eleric players are really playing two different games, and I think that is partially responsible for some of the friction.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

He wasn't the only one to have an incoherent post. I'm actually with a leg on both sides here: without a hit location or major wounds system, some guns are simply _too harmless_. The classic is things like derringers, which used very small caliber bullets. Even with an impale, its way too easy with just a big pool of hit points for it not to be possible to kill someone outright with the gun (the possible exception is with some forms of the crit system which double against unarmored targets, but I tend to have issues with that approach by itself as it produces wierd artifacts where someone with a really trivial level of armor suddenly has a _massive_ advantage over someone without). Even impales don't show any sort of reliable lethality with many lighter pistol rounds.

Interestingly enough that isn't entirely unrealistic. Pocket pistols and derringers has a well deserved reputation for being almost equally dangerous to those on either end. Killing someone with one usually takes a very lucky shot, a severed blood vessel, and time.

The hard thing about BRP though is that because it has hit points, there is a numerical rating that must be reached to kill a character, and a weapon that doesn't hit that rating just can't kill with one shot. Realistically, killing someone with a .25 or .32 caliber pistol with one shot is very very rare, but remotely possible. That isn't always the case in a game though.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

On the other end, once you do get into hit locations or major wounds, it can be rather too _easy_ to die outright (this is aside your issue of deaths from repeated shots, by the by; I'm just talking on a shot by shot basis) for the good of a campaign. Part of this, as you note, is that BRP doesn't address eventual lethality at all, so a hit is either immediately lethal or it isn't.

Somewhat. IMO hit locations tend to reduce lethality. Killing someone with one hit tends to happen with attacks that would have killed the guy anyway (critical hits with impaling weapons). Characters tend to get taken out of the fight before they get killed.

I think I'll work on a "eventually fatal" type of result for the Western Spot rules. I might as well, I've got a 14 page price list, 6 weapons lists, bestiary, professions, new skills, a alternate rule for toxins ('cuz its more fun to have you buddy rush you back 20 miles to town to see the Doc then it is to have someone drop dead on the spot). If I did a chapter on history, notable personalities, and geography I could go for a entire supplment.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Yeah. But of course I tend to want my cake and eat it too here; I want the basic system to be quasi-realistic, but I also know that having too much PC fatality is usually not a good thing for most campaigns.

Amen. That is the tightrope that game designers must walk. Everyone sees the rope in a different spot, too. However, the thing is, I think the damages in BRP thanks to instant kills might be even more deadly than real life.

One thing that I liked about Timelords and CORPS was that a character could take a hit that might kill then in a couple of hours, but would be okay if it were treated. Something like that might not be a bad solution for some of us with BRP. It would be a potentially fatal wound so the lethality and danger factor is still there there, but can be treated, so the PC survivability factor is still acceptable.

Even a really simple would deterioration idea like:

Damage from one hit <=1/4hp= loose 1 hp/day
" " >1/4hp=1hp/hour
" " >1/2hp=1hp/min
" " >3/4hp=1hp/MR

might do it.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Quite true. About the only real reason why casualty rates were higher in the Ancient and Medieval world was that wholesale slaughter and massacres were more common. Any weapon can have a 100% mortality rate if you work at it.

A spear thrust might even be more lethal than a .38 bullet. It makes a bigger wound and causes more bleeding.

I actually suspect on a hit per hit basis, that most serious melee weapons are more lethal than most handgun rounds honestly; the big advantage to guns is a combination of penetration and rate of fire until you get to rifles.

Since "bang-your dead" isn't much fun to play. Especially when a player might not be able to do anything about it (like when the other guy has a higher DEX and Dodge doesn't work against bullets).

Yeah. If anything, BRP tends to suffer from the fact here it tends to somewhat _overstate_ the accuracy of ranged weapons outside of the range or situation when aiming takes place.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Interestingly enough that isn't entirely unrealistic. Pocket pistols and derringers has a well deserved reputation for being almost equally dangerous to those on either end. Killing someone with one usually takes a very lucky shot, a severed blood vessel, and time.

Note the commonest gun used in execution killings, even those where the target is semi-aware and resisting are .22's. At short enough ranges, they still have enough penetration on unarmored targets to do the job.

Somewhat. IMO hit locations tend to reduce lethality. Killing someone with

But not on single shot kills. It reduces it because people fold up when disabled, but it increases the ability to be killed by the shot in the first place because it simply doesn't need as massive a hit.

As noted, in RQ a single 8 point hit to the head will kill a lot of characters; in BRP games without either wounding thresholds or hit location, that isn't going to happen except against a very frail character.




Amen. That is the tightrope that game designers must walk. Everyone sees the rope in a different spot, too. However, the thing is, I think the damages in BRP thanks to instant kills might be even more deadly than real life.

[/quote]

That's somewhat my feeling on it.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Note the commonest gun used in execution killings, even those where the target is semi-aware and resisting are .22's. At short enough ranges, they still have enough penetration on unarmored targets to do the job.

I think this is much like the 1D3+1/1D4 knife. By the rules a kill in combat is limited to small people with low CONs, unless hit location are used. Yet virtually any weapon can kill if applied properly. The OSS and British Commandos did use, and hand out a .22 caliber weapon to kill enemy soldiers (so you you take their gun). Surprise is a big factor. When you put the barrel up against the back of a guy's skull you not only got an auto head hit, but probably at least an impale.

Like I wrote earlier. What I think we might need is some way to aim for increased damage. Something like halving your skill for an impale or maybe for a die shift (D4-D6-D8 etc).

Personally, I'd really love a Damage Class/die shift idea, with the STR/SIZ modifer shifting up the die rather than being a separate die, but I doubt that would go over well with others.

For firearms though, the ability to aim and bounce up a die by one or even two steps could really make small pistols useful in expert hands. It might much up armor though. While I could see carefully aiming a .25 Beretta to avoid the kevlar vest, I can't see carefully aiming it to avoid the the 12 AP steel bulkhead that otherwise would have stopped the bullet cold.

Come to think of it a die shift for range might be a good solution. Kick up the damage die at point-blank and drop if at long range. That might help all around. A pistol round at 2m has a lot more energy that it does at 200m. That would also get the 1D6 pistols up to the much more lethal 1D8 range that can kill 99% of the humans in the game.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

As noted, in RQ a single 8 point hit to the head will kill a lot of characters; in BRP games without either wounding thresholds or hit location, that isn't going to happen except against a very frail character.

Yeah, that isn't going to happen much. I'm not sure if we can come up with a solution that will please everybody. Right now, I'm leaning towards:

1) shifting up the die a step at Point Blank (DEX) range. So a 1D6 pistol does 1D8, a 1D10 pistol does 2D6, and so forth. The we could drop the damage die at longer ranges. So a .32APC with a 15m base range would do 1D4 at 60m, and 1D2 at 120m.

2) Allow a character to take an aimed shot at half ability, but bump up any success by one grade. So if a character with a 60% pistol skill did a called shot, he would shoot at 30% but get an impale if he hit, and have a 6% critical chance.


I think I'll put those in the next draft of the Western "spot rules". Could make a pocket pistol kinda useful.

[Enpeze]

Originally Posted by soltakss

Of course, I fully understand how people can think of them as cheating in some way, as you are rerolling dice or affecting what actually happened. But, quite a lot of the time the same people that dislike Fate/Hero Points have no problems with rolling dice secretly or fudging dice rolls. But, that's not cheating!!!

I have problems with fudging. I am against it. And I am against cheating. The gods of destiny will crush those who betrays them. (and take their stuff)

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

I think this is much like the 1D3+1/1D4 knife. By the rules a kill in combat is limited to small people with low CONs, unless hit location are used. Yet virtually any weapon can kill if applied properly. The OSS and British Commandos did use, and hand out a .22 caliber weapon to kill enemy soldiers (so you you take their gun). Surprise is a big factor. When you put the barrel up against the back of a guy's skull you not only got an auto head hit, but probably at least an impale.

Sure, but it happens even outside of total suprise. As you say, the problem's the same as with a lot of small weapons; its just perhaps a bit more obvious with small caliber handguns.

Like I wrote earlier. What I think we might need is some way to aim for increased damage. Something like halving your skill for an impale or maybe for a die shift (D4-D6-D8 etc).

Personally, I'd really love a Damage Class/die shift idea, with the STR/SIZ modifer shifting up the die rather than being a separate die, but I doubt that would go over well with others.

I'm thinking that as an idea for part of a critical hit system it'd be viable; the one thing I liked from the MRQ playtest was the idea of selecting crits from a set of options rather than a standardized result.

Come to think of it a die shift for range might be a good solution. Kick up the damage die at point-blank and drop if at long range. That might help all around. A pistol round at 2m has a lot more energy that it does at 200m. That would also get the 1D6 pistols up to the much more lethal 1D8 range that can kill 99% of the humans in the game.

This is a problem with a lot of ranged weapons, actually; its pretty much true with bows and (specifically) crossbows, too.

Yeah, that isn't going to happen much. I'm not sure if we can come up with a solution that will please everybody. Right now, I'm leaning towards:

Probably not; as we've noted elsewhere, non-RQ people (especially those from versions of BRP without even a major wounds system) don't much care about this, far as I can tell.

[Ars Mysteriorum]

Originally Posted by drohem

In my mind, players characters are heroes by definition no matter the game system or setting.

I am rather fond of the grim-and-gritty style and settings myself and I can identify with your point of view. However, I still like the concept and have no problem with using this mechanic in conjuction with a grim-and-gritty setting. It just has to be mananged properly, and the benefits of the mechanic have to be carefully balanced so that it doesn't drastically alter the flow of events (i.e. spending a point mystically heals all wounds, etc.).

As a WFRP GM, I would like to add that Fate Points do not mystically heal anything. The character survives. That's it. He is most certainly down for the fight where the critical wound was dealt, and probably is missing a limb or is badly injured. He may also be captured and have all his gear taken.

Fate points allow a character to avoid deleterious effects, but not completely.

Just saying.

[Triff]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

I think I'll work on a "eventually fatal" type of result for the Western Spot rules. I might as well, I've got a 14 page price list, 6 weapons lists, bestiary, professions, new skills, a alternate rule for toxins ('cuz its more fun to have you buddy rush you back 20 miles to town to see the Doc then it is to have someone drop dead on the spot). If I did a chapter on history, notable personalities, and geography I could go for a entire supplment.

Well, they are looking for 64 page supplements!

SGL.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Triff

Well, they are looking for 64 page supplements!

SGL.

I doubt anyone would pay for a 64page price list.

64 pages of weapon stats....



The Gatling gun gets a couple of pages, the 6 and 12 pounder cannon, then the pistols rifles, shotguns, and muskets. Yeah, enough for 64 pages.

The critter book....


Might have a whole series here.