elf/dwarf presence in swords & sorcery

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Shaira

I think Elves and Dwarves however much you use them are going to be Tolkien-derived, and therefore produce a Tolkienesque (D&D-esque) atmosphere, especially as Tolkien himself derived his Elves and Dwarves from Northern European mythology, with a bunch of Christian symbolism thrown-in.

You could argue Gloranthan Elves and Dwarves are different, but I would argue that they're not actually Elves and Dwarves at all, but rather something completely different - Aldryami and Mostali, with the Tolkien-labels gummed on for shorthand and familiarity. Likewise Elfquest.

Don't get me wrong - I *like* the Tolkienesque genres. But other fantasy genres (I'm thinking of Howard, Lieber, and Vance, for example) manage perfectly well without them.

Same for me.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Aycorn]

I guess it boils down to whether they fit a "gritty sword and sorcery" setting ala "Conan."

I would say that they could, if handled deftly enough.

I can imagine Conan wandering into some huge Hyperborean forest and encountering something like Lothlorien - but it would be depicted rather differently than in LOTR - it would doubtless be hopelessly alien (and probably pretty dull) to Conan.

There's nothing wrong, per se, with elves/dwarves - or, for that matter, with LOTR-derived settings, or D&D type settings, if that's what you want to play. And, of course as others have said, there are other ways to interpret elves/dwarves, if one so chooses.

Check out the elves in Poul Anderson's "The Broken Sword" for elves that are in many ways very much cut from the same cloth as Tolkein's, and yet very distinctly different.

In my "pseudo-Celtic" campaign, I'm not going to be using elves. I plan on having a race of dwarves which will be pretty much standard D&D-ish dwarfs (grumpy miners with battle-axes). They will be pretty minor - as I kinda figure a race of underground-dwellers won't be a fixture among aboveground city-dwellers. I basically decided to have this type of dwarves because I like them.

I'm not doing elves, though.

[soltakss]

I don't mind elves and dwarves. Even Orcs have their place as a fantasy species.

You have to fit them in, though, and it does depend on the setting.

Discworld dwarves are interesting for a bit, their elves are really great (cruel, unfeeling, haughty Lords and Ladies).

If you can have trolls then why not elves and dwarves?

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Aycorn

Check out the elves in Poul Anderson's "The Broken Sword" for elves that are in many ways very much cut from the same cloth as Tolkein's, and yet very distinctly different.

That because Tolken elves are derived from Finnish folklore, whereas as Anderson's elves were based or Nordic elves.

[Aycorn]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

That because Tolken elves are derived from Finnish folklore, whereas as Anderson's elves were based or Nordic elves.

I wasn't aware that Tolkein was drawing from the Finnish; but then, I'm not terribly knowledgeable about Finnish myth and legend. I always figured Tolkein's were pretty Nordic, too.

Anyway - "Broken Sword"s a helluva book

[Enpeze]

Originally Posted by badcat

Do you guys think elves and dwarves (Tolkien style, more or less) can fit in swords & sorcery well, or do they always skew the setting they are placed in to a D&D-esque feel?

They dont fit into S&S. They have their place in tolkin style settings or D&D worlds and should stay IMO there.

[Enpeze]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

That because Tolken elves are derived from Finnish folklore, whereas as Anderson's elves were based or Nordic elves.

Elves from Finnland? Really? Never heard this. Do you have a source for this idea? I always thought that Tolkien created a own Middle-Earth variant of the folkloristic nordic light elves and swart alfas. (mentioned in the edda)

[fmitchell]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

That because Tolken elves are derived from Finnish folklore, whereas as Anderson's elves were based or Nordic elves.

No, I'm pretty sure Tolkien's elves were from Nordic/Saxon or Celtic lore. He based one of the Elvish languages on Finnish, and some story elements of LotR came from the Kalevala. The concept of elves, though, was firmly rooted in the British Isles, and the various conquerors thereof.

[alairduk]

[quote]I loathe most fantasy depictions of dwarves...
in fact I can't think of any I like. [/quote[

Pratchett, in fact Pratchett for the Elves as well....