Why is BRP not that popular?

[Atgxtg]

Reasons why BRP isn't that popular (IMO):

1)Obscurity.
With the exception of CoC the system hasn't been available, or seen much by most gamers. CoC is a game where the mechanics of BRP are sort of downplayed (most the monsters are bullet resistant). So just to be aware or BRP probably means that you've been gaming for 15 years or so.

2) Glorantha.
Like it or not, it was the major obstacle to getting other gamers into RQ2. The world was just so different from the other fantasy settings (LOTR rip offs) were like that most players just didn't get it.

3) The Avalon Hill Deal
Part two of the "one-two combination" that took RQ out of contention for AD&D's throne. Wheel Glorantha kept the general gaming populace away from RQ, the AH deal alienated a lot of Chaosium fans. Some over the rule changes, and a lot more over the lack of new material. It was if someone had dammed up the creative stream. We went from getting 3 or 4 new RQ products a year to no new Glorantha products for, what, 5 years?

4) Stagnation
RQ/BRP was a very innovative system when first introduced. IT introduced, or improved upon many new concepts, such as active defense, armor absorption, and skill based as opposed to class/level based. All good stuff in 1978. SO good that the basic system was used for a host of other RPGs. That was 30 years ago. Nothing has evolved in the RQ/BRP rules since RQ3. A shame, since the system was one that used to have constant and contimual innovation. Sometimes BPR shows it age when compared to more recent RPGs. For instance, since RQ/BRP grew out of SCA experience, the game never developed "non-lethal" damage.

5) No much support
A lot of GMs like to buy and run prewritten adventures. If there are no adventures, then they don't run that game. This sort goes with the scene after the Avalon Hill Deal. prior to that, the game got great support. I love those old boxed set campaign packs. Once the AH deal went through, not only did the Campaign Packs stop, but even Chasoim stopped using that approach on thier own games. An adventure every two or three years doesn't cut it. If you play any Chasoium RPG other than CoC you don't have much in the way of prewritten stuff.

6) Perssonel changes.
Back when Chasoium was in it'S heyday, and RQ/BRP products were coming out steadily, the material was mostly written by the same group of people. The same names pop up over and over again on the credits of various products. Now, very few of those people still work for Chaosium. Nothing against the new crew, but the orginal writers are a tough act to follow.

7) Call of Cthulhu
CoC was one of the first horror RPGs, and the most successful. So successful that Chaosium seemed to focus all their efforts on it to the exclusion of practically everything else. I think that Chasoium has published more stuff for CoC that for all their other game systems combined. But, CoC is rather interdependent of the system (stats don't matter much when the PCs are usually the weakest thing in the scenario). And, players who are not interested in horror role-playing and or H.P. Lovecraft will just pass the game by, and that is what the majoirty of gamers are doing.


8) We lost that lovin' feelin'
Back in the late 70s/early 80s, the RPG community was different. Game designers were players, and were more interested in exhanging ideas with each other, impressing other players and actually improving a game. Now, the gaming hobby has turned into a RPG industry, and become a bit more impersonal. Back in the early days it was more about ideas and fun. Now it is about product and profit. As a result, companies that can throw around more $$$ get better market share. Even back when RQ was popular it wasn't in the stores the way D&D was.

9) CCGs
These things pretty much wiped out all the small to mdedium sized RPG companies, including AH, and did a number on other companies, such as Chasoium. That7s a major reason why BRP has been in RPG limbo for over a decade.

Just my take on the subject.

[badcat]

You're heeeeeerrrrrrrreeeeee.

This is once-andakitty. Welcome, even if I can't agree with some of that...

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by badcat

You're heeeeeerrrrrrrreeeeee.

This is once-andakitty. Welcome, even if I can't agree with some of that...

But do you agree with ANY of it?

I did say IMO. I think most BRPers would agree in part to most of it, just differ over what the percentages. I think most RQ2 fans would rate the AH deal as #1 reason.

With people like you, Triffle, and Enpeze hanging around, this site feels strangely familiar.

[badcat]

Actually I agree with most of it, but I'll keep you guessing as to what I don't.

[Enpeze]

Originally Posted by badcat

You certainly have a point about MRQ and Glorantha. Last yearwhen I was keeping up with the Mongoose forums, just before they published either one, by far the most criticism and resistance was leveled at MRQ itself and the most excitement and acceptance was directed at Second Age Glorantha. Remember that, Enpeze?

Yes. I remember. Nonetheless I think that BRP (while beeing the best rule set out there) had never the chance to become number one (not even number 3 or so) among rpgs. IMO it lacks some fundamental mechanics most players seem to enjoy. (you know levels, instant gratifications and massive hitpoints) Its not just a matter of support. Its also very human that most like to think of themselves as miniature versions of 10th level hero Bruce Willis mowing down bad 1st level goons. D&D support such vision. BRP not really. (at least not in any game I took part)
So the core features of BRP (like we defined them already in another thread) are catering just the needs of a part of roleplayers but not the vast majority.
But what I agree is that BRP could have a considerable larger market share if Chaosium had shown a better economic skill in the past.
Whatever. They are able to show it this year. (not that I am very optimistic about the future market share of BRP, but they are excellent in designing games, so I think I will love the new book)

[Enpeze]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

But do you agree with ANY of it?

I did say IMO. I think most BRPers would agree in part to most of it, just differ over what the percentages. I think most RQ2 fans would rate the AH deal as #1 reason.

With people like you, Triffle, and Enpeze hanging around, this site feels strangely familiar.

Welcome on board.
I would agree on the most things about BRP history you wrote. But its only part of the real reason for me. Another (and maybe bigger part) of reason is that D&D with its way to handle rpgs is better suited for the needs of the masses of roleplayers. (see above) So BRP could have a better position than today, but it would not have the ability to be number one in popularity instead of D&D. (maybe among the top 5)

[Enpeze]

Originally Posted by badcat

Also, you can use BRP to create the kind of slay-and-loot games that our +4 sword owners crave...there are a variety of official and houserules that allow the creation of nearly invulnerable PCs.

I agree that this might be possible with sufficient tweaking and house ruling. But for what price? Is it BRP anymore or is it something else after such a transformation?

Originally Posted by badcat

Think about it, Enpeze. In Stormbringer 1-3 you could summon a Demon of Protection with 75 armor points. Thats even better than 75 hit points, because you have to hit with 75 points or better to even hurt the wearer!

This is right. But not everyone had such an armor. (I remember just one player in my group in the entire campaign had demon armor) And its just a rare, expensive magical gadget. He doesnt wear it during sleep, sex etc. (at least I hope so). Its not a substitution for a rule system which allows that everybody has alot of HP.

Originally Posted by badcat

And there are other ways. I ran a D&D style game more than once using a pastiche of Magic World and Stormbringer, and it was hack, slay, and loot, just like D&D but with the more playable BRP percentile system. I got my wife into rpgs that way, and she wouldn't even try D&D. Took one look at the mechanics and backed right out, then took to the BRP style 'D&D' like a duck to water.

It is mostly the lack of support and lack (or neglect) of marketing skill. As Charles Green noted, around 1981 if Chaosium had played their cards right WoW could have been expanded and become the first 'universal' rpg instead of GURPS...and replaced AD&D as the base line rpg with a more playable, coherent, and understandable game system.

It also occurs to me that if certain people, like Dave Hargrave, had latched on to RQ or Stormbringer as their original system, the creativity they brought to the hobby could have boosted BRP style systems instead of class and level ones. All these things contributed.

In the end, we will not know, what it was. (we seem to have some slightly deviating opinions about this sujet) At least BRP seem to get a second chance to become more popular the next years.

[badcat]

True enough. I remember when I 'found' RQ2 in 1981, it was like lights coming on. I was in an AD&D group, and immediately wanted to jump to the new game. Some of the group split and we started playing the Big Rubble, Sun Country, Griffon Mountain, etc.; some stayed with the AD&D. My point here is that our group split almost exactly 50/50. And all that happened was that we looked at RQ2...and another local group was starting CoC about that time. So I sometimes wonder what might have happened if Chaosium had been more aggressive. I know some inside things occurred to help derail the company somewhat too, but I really think the potential was there for it to have become the spearhead rpg around that period.

[Atgxtg]

Enpeze,

I see your point about D&D being the gaming fro the masses. I do not entirely agree with it though. Over the years, most of my gaming groups have been comprised of "reformed" D&Ders.

While a good percentage of thsoe player never "got" systems like RQ/BRP, others did. Quite a few players did get into things once they started to realize the differences and what sort of new options that were available.

So I think is isn't so much, "what the masses want", but "what the masses have been taught to expect". IMO similar to the situation with AOL.

[Sverre]

BRP gets converts from D&D, I don't think D&D gets many converts from BRP. And that says a lot. I truly belive BRP could be the game for the masses, just like D&D is now. It all depends on support, availability and marketing. But, as we can't expect Chaosium to do much on the marketing bit, I guess the fanbase have to do that. I usually buy all my rpg-stuff online (cheaper & faster) but the new BRP stuff I will get from my local store, have them order it so they take it in - so it's more visible and hopefully more people will try it. I thinking of gaming on a rpg convention here too, to spread the word.

Triff.