Hit points, locations, damage, etc.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

True, but the same effect applies in BRP. A crtical from an implaling weapon like a spear or sword is typically going to do enough damage to kill a character. An 18 point arrow or spear hit that bypasses armor will kill over 99% of PCs. So the hit locations don't make the game any more deadly as far as crticals are concerned.

I have to point out that there have been at least some forms of BRP that didn't deal with impales, and those that did often used the RQ3 approach, which tended to push small ones (such as arrows, the commonest source of impales in my experience) down to the point where a single one when you're fresh wouldn't kill you. You couldn't say that with locations. And there's the simple fact not every weapon impales, but they all crit, and even a non-impaling crit in the head with a melee weapon could often do it for you in RQ.

I'm not denying mechanisms that tend to cause disablement before death can have some reduction in overall lethality (and are usually more realistic to boot) but I cant' count the number of RQ lethalities I saw from locational effects over the years, but THP accumulated ones were pretty rare. This doesn't suggest to me that the locations actually made the game less lethal, though the net effect may have broken even (I never used BRP in a non-RQ context enough outside Superworld to judge, and Superworld had mechanical features that made it intrinsically less lethal).

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

I have to point out that there have been at least some forms of BRP that didn't deal with impales, and those that did often used the RQ3 approach, which tended to push small ones (such as arrows, the commonest source of impales in my experience) down to the point where a single one when you're fresh wouldn't kill you. You couldn't say that with locations. And there's the simple fact not every weapon impales, but they all crit, and even a non-impaling crit in the head with a melee weapon could often do it for you in RQ.

I'm not denying mechanisms that tend to cause disablement before death can have some reduction in overall lethality (and are usually more realistic to boot) but I cant' count the number of RQ lethalities I saw from locational effects over the years, but THP accumulated ones were pretty rare. This doesn't suggest to me that the locations actually made the game less lethal, though the net effect may have broken even (I never used BRP in a non-RQ context enough outside Superworld to judge, and Superworld had mechanical features that made it intrinsically less lethal).

Most version of BRP that I've seen had the impale rule, and those that didn't (SB1) had higher damaged for missile ratings.

Personally, I think the problem is that limb hits also cause total HP loss, and can kill. While having an arm or leg taken off can, and probably will kill someone, it won't do it right away. To be realistic, a rule like limb hit damage to total HP caps at location HP, combined with a bleeding rule.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Most version of BRP that I've seen had the impale rule, and those that didn't (SB1) had higher damaged for missile ratings.

As I recall, Ringworld didn't. And even those that did, I'm just suggesting that a single 2d+2 hit won't usually kill in systems that only track total hit points (especially if armor is present at all).

Personally, I think the problem is that limb hits also cause total HP loss, and can kill. While having an arm or leg taken off can, and probably will kill someone, it won't do it right away. To be realistic, a rule like limb hit damage to total HP caps at location HP, combined with a bleeding rule.

As I recall, it capped at twice limb hit points in RQ3 (and there was a bleeding rule of sorts). But honestly, as I said, people rarely died from total hit point loss in RQ1-3 in my experience; it could happen occasionally, but it was the single big torso or head hit that did them in, and the majority of those were from crits or impales (you did always get the single big conventional hit from an unparried attack by something with a huge damage bonus cases, but they weren't in the majority). Fact was, when a serious opponent was likely doing at least 1d8+1+1d4, it just didn't take much for a crit from it to kill you; there's enough linearity there that the torso or head locations were too vulnerable to gusting. Same situation with the 2d8+2 you'd get from most criticals from arrows.

[RMS]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

As I recall, it capped at twice limb hit points in RQ3 (and there was a bleeding rule of sorts). But honestly, as I said, people rarely died from total hit point loss in RQ1-3 in my experience; it could happen occasionally, but it was the single big torso or head hit that did them in, and the majority of those were from crits or impales (you did always get the single big conventional hit from an unparried attack by something with a huge damage bonus cases, but they weren't in the majority). Fact was, when a serious opponent was likely doing at least 1d8+1+1d4, it just didn't take much for a crit from it to kill you; there's enough linearity there that the torso or head locations were too vulnerable to gusting. Same situation with the 2d8+2 you'd get from most criticals from arrows.

That's my experience too. It's virtually impossible to die from a single wound to a limb, for the rules as I run them (which I think is the same as written ). Damage to total hit points is limited to double the hit points of the hit location, so an average person can only take 6 points for an arm hit or 8 points for a leg hit to general hit points. That might make them go unconscious and will lead to them bleeding out without medical care. However, it can't insta-kill them. Only head, chest, abdomen hits can do that and they're very deadly. That's why players go for heavy armor in those locations and light armor on the limbs, even though the limbs are much more likely to actually be hit in melee.

I'd also note here that I use 3x, rather than 2x, limb hit points for limb destruction (severed, mangled beyond hope, etc.), but still cap the damage to general hit points at 2x the limb. This keeps the "flying limb syndrome" in check, while still allowing it to happen frequently enough for my reality checker.