Question for the lucky handful with the book

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by frogspawner

Oops, I missed the "per point of damage" before. OK, so it's not super-powerful like I thought but instead it's insipid.

We'll there are several methods to invoke this. Personally I'd have preferred a 1-1 basis with a CAP per attack of something like 1/2 POW. I did assume a 1-1 basis for my Spot Rules I posted a month back.

Although I'dprobably use the "bump success levels" option, now that I know it exists. It worked great in Bond.

Originally Posted by frogspawner

And, without a roll involved, where's the excitement?

I think you are missing the purpose of the points. They are not there to add to the excitement, but to help mitigate some of the extreme effects-especially when players have little they can do about them.

Case in point, long ago in a campaign, the GM got a hot hand and criticalled every PC in the first two rounds of battle. No one's fault, dice do that at times. The net effect was that suddenly, the whole group was wiped out, the adventure was stopped dead, and everything was back to square one. All from what was, a "wandering monster".

That's the sort of things that hero points can address.

Originally Posted by frogspawner

It's just a bit too calculated, not Heroic. And all the other ways to spend PP makes it too complicated.

I don't think the spending 6 to alter a success level is too complicated. If you think it is, then stay clear of any of the magic sections. Functionally it is simpler than casting Protection 6, and will a shorter duration.

As for it not being heroic. in what way. The idea is for the points to let people act herorically. Simply letting the dice fall where they may tends to work counter to that. If the bad guys got the hero pinned down with a machinegun, a heroic setting would have some way for a PC to move up to the machinegune nest and toss in a grenade. In the real world, that get's accomplished with a lot of luck and a lot more casualties. John Wayne might make it, but a dozen other guys get mowed down.

In "straight" BRP combat. "Big John" is just an easy target. By the time he canclose the distance to the machinegune next, he will be shot of several times and be "Dead John".

Points let you get around that. At least somewhat. The excitement is that the points are limited, so while John might be able to avoid one or two hits, he still has the rest of the battle to get through, and so must use the points wisely.

Originally Posted by frogspawner

Where would this lead? One side spending points to re-roll better hits and increase damage, the other side spending points to downgrade those hits and then (maybe) negate some damage too. So, everyone's out of PP by the second round - and then the real fight can start!?

If you give both sides the same amount of points all the time, yeah. Like I posted in another thread, if you give a squad of 20 stormtroopers points to spend, they will become an insurmountable obstacle.

THe idea is that the points should either only be available to the major characters, or be alloted in proportion to the character's significance. So an extra would get not or very few, while a major villain would get a lot.


My only real issue with the points is how they are regenerated. POW is okay for "Luck" points. But I'd have preferred a method of earning new ones rather than regenerating POW.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Au contraire. Assuming that a critical parry still blocks everything then upping your own success level would do the job. Once. If you got a lot of POW maybe twice.

Well, I'm thinking of this in regard to an RQ3/4 variant, so if the giant critted, even if you both did, its still not necessarily going to go well for you; and if you're limited to personal Power, most people aren't going to be able to slide this more than at most two total levels at 7 poitns a pop.

[frogspawner]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

One of the least attractive features of BRP (at least with full blown RQ) for many people is how remarkably easy it is to just get a bad roll ...
You can't completely buffer bad luck, nor, in the end, do you usually want to except in very stylized games, but there's matters of degree here.

I still hope to devise a system that buffers it better (without massive PP expenditure in Round 1 by both sides, farcically attempting to out-Hero each other). Currently I'm trying a "Defence x PP spent" % chance to avoid 10/20/All damage ('Defence' starting low, 0-ish, but increasing for good RP). Hopefully, it should reduce thos Bad Rolls by nearly a factor of 20. We'll see how it goes.

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

If you give both sides the same amount of points all the time, yeah. Like I posted in another thread, if you give a squad of 20 stormtroopers points to spend, they will become an insurmountable obstacle.
THe idea is that the points should either only be available to the major characters, or be alloted in proportion to the character's significance. So an extra would get not or very few, while a major villain would get a lot.

Understood. I was assuming the 'grand denouement' with the villains - the encounter that you least want to degenerate into farce.

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

I don't think the spending 6 to alter a success level is too complicated. If you think it is, then stay clear of any of the magic sections. Functionally it is simpler than casting Protection 6, and will a shorter duration.

I meant the array of different BRP options makes it too complicated. OK, the GM may only use one or none, but he may allow any, or any combination... too much!

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

I think you are missing the purpose of the points. They are not there to add to the excitement, but to help mitigate some of the extreme effects-especially when players have little they can do about them.
Case in point, long ago in a campaign, the GM got a hot hand and criticalled every PC in the first two rounds of battle.

Ooo, nasty! I do get the purpose - but I think Fate/Luck/Hero points can be used for that in some way that also doesn't detract from the excitement too much. Having a totally reliable way to escape killing blows would spoil it, for me. I reckon the system I'm now trying would have saved most of your unfortunately criticalled PCs (but just cost them some/all of their power points...)

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

As for it not being heroic. in what way.

To be Heroic, you need to be taking a risk. If your Fate Points options guarantee you a way out - there's no risk. Totting up points to buy your way out of danger makes you an Accountant, not a Hero.

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

My only real issue with the points is how they are regenerated. POW is okay for "Luck" points. But I'd have preferred a method of earning new ones rather than regenerating POW.

I hope combining an earned "Luck" (Defence) skill with having to pay PP to use it will do the trick. (BTW, I'll be checking out your spot rules straight away. Sorry for not spotting them sooner! )

[Lord Twig]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

One of the least attractive features of BRP (at least with full blown RQ) for many people is how remarkably easy it is to just get a bad roll (and not even necessarily yours) and get taken out in a relatively trivial fight where you fundamentally did nothing wrong; it tends to be a deal-breaker for using the system for certain groups even with campaigns it'd otherwise be attractive for.

Of course other groups appreciate that combat is "dangerous" and that there is a chance that they will be taken out of the fight by one lucky hit. As long as the whole group doesn't die the characters that fell can be healed back up by the ones who made it through the battle.

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

I think you are missing the purpose of the points. They are not there to add to the excitement, but to help mitigate some of the extreme effects-especially when players have little they can do about them.

Case in point, long ago in a campaign, the GM got a hot hand and criticalled every PC in the first two rounds of battle. No one's fault, dice do that at times. The net effect was that suddenly, the whole group was wiped out, the adventure was stopped dead, and everything was back to square one. All from what was, a "wandering monster".

That's the sort of things that hero points can address.

It can also be addressed by GM fudging. I know some people have an unreasoning hatred of GM fudging, but it is a time honored tool. If I roll one critical, fine. Two? Bad luck for them. A third? Well, maybe I'll save that for later. The players certainly aren't going to suspect that I am cheating in their favor, I already rolled two critical successes against them!

[frogspawner]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Personally I'd have preferred a 1-1 basis with a CAP per attack of something like 1/2 POW. I did assume a 1-1 basis for my Spot Rules I posted a month back.

Originally Posted by frogspawner

(BTW, I'll be checking out your spot rules straight away. Sorry for not spotting them sooner! )

Aha! Buried in "Old West Spot Rules" - no wonder I missed 'em (soz, not a western fan).
They're good: clean and simple. Pretty close in essence to the system I'm trying. Having to make a Luck Roll before you get the benefit seems a bit too chancy, though. (Some risk is all you need to be a Hero - too much and you're just some other dead guy, before long). Mine's a bit clunkier but should let you escape/survive at least one Killer Blow, up to 95% of the time - if you care to spend the PP, that is...

[frogspawner]

Originally Posted by Lord Twig

It can also be addressed by GM fudging. I know some people have an unreasoning hatred of GM fudging, but it is a time honored tool.

With all due respect, my Lord, but you can keep yer 'time honoured tool'! Maybe it's lack of fudging confidence, but as GM I want the support of a system I can trust - then I can sit back and enjoy the unfolding story, like the rest of 'em...

[Lord Twig]

Originally Posted by frogspawner

With all due respect, my Lord, but you can keep yer 'time honoured tool'! Maybe it's lack of fudging confidence, but as GM I want the support of a system I can trust - then I can sit back and enjoy the unfolding story, like the rest of 'em...

Certainly! To each their own. I just wanted to point out that there has been a solution to this problem that has worked very well for decades.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Lord Twig

Of course other groups appreciate that combat is "dangerous" and that there is a chance that they will be taken out of the fight by one lucky hit. As long as the whole group doesn't die the characters that fell can be healed back up by the ones who made it through the battle.

That only applies if the characters aren't dead or are in a setting that permits resurrection, _and_ that have the resources to do it. That's a rather large number of ifs.

It can also be addressed by GM fudging. I know some people have an unreasoning hatred of GM fudging, but it is a time honored tool. If I roll one

I consider it the last resort of bad design, personally. If I have to do that with any frequency at all (and by that I mean more than once or twice in a campaign) its a message to me that my game system is misdesigned, my campaign is inappropriate for the system, or both. While it works well for some people, we've always considered it at best the lesser of two evils, and anything I can do to minimize it is a virtue.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Lord Twig

Certainly! To each their own. I just wanted to point out that there has been a solution to this problem that has worked very well for decades.

This, however, turns on a rather specific definition of "worked very well".

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Well, I'm thinking of this in regard to an RQ3/4 variant, so if the giant critted, even if you both did, its still not necessarily going to go well for you; and if you're limited to personal Power, most people aren't going to be able to slide this more than at most two total levels at 7 poitns a pop.

Ah, but since a parry success bumbs the crti down to a special, bring it down to a miss is doable. Spend 14 MPs or play tent peg? Either way a no brainer!