Dare I ask?

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by TRose

...Add to the fact since shaman learn how to summon spell teaching spirits they can easy learn what ever spells they want with no problem , unlike a sorcerer who has to find a teacher or book to learn from.
Might add one big draw back for sorcerers should always be that just because you want to learn a spell does not mean there some body at the local bar that can teach you it. A big restriction on Sorcerers should be on how they learn spells.

Exactly. This is why I told the sorceror does have to learn 14 spells. The shaman just has to grab the right spirit and he has the needed spell.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Really, its not. Its most of the spirit magic attacks, but a number of the more dangerous things to do to someone with divine magic or sorcerery aren't power versus power. Some big ones are (Sever Spirit and its kin), but given out of the three offensive Divine Spells in the core book only one is (Lightning), and its arguably the weakest of the three in terms of value per cost, I really don't think phrasing it as "immune to magical attack" describes the situation well.

I have written "almost immune". But please cite me 1 sorcery attack spell that does not require a MP vs MP roll. In the core rules, 2 Divine are doing the trick, I agree (plus several in GoG).

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

And is a far higher result than is needed for this to start becoming a problem. A month long Damage Boost 4 on a whole party is more than enough to start to tilt this.

Damage boost 4 on 1 weapon of 1 player is not overpowering and does not change the balance. The shift of balance comes when (if I understand well your point) all the members are boosted, and to do that, you need more than 1 month duration just to have the time to cast the spells.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Since the only people who get anywhere with sorcery usually start with the profession anyway (because the base values anyone who just gets it as a magic type are so low, especially when modified by armor, that its often tantamount to useless to them).
...

I agree here.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

...
- learn 3 spells (create Intelligence spirit binding matrix, summon Intelligence spirit, control Intelligence spirit) and bring them to a sufficient level (with summon and enchant) to avoid risking too much.



Almost always started with in the examples that were problems.

...

As your sorceror has "only" 1 spell per year of preliminary experience, 3 are already taken on the average 7. With only 4 useful spells, your guy is almost useless.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

...
Not usually that big a deal if you pick the right kind of familiar in the first place.
...

I agree, but this still a cost. And as a sorceror, I don't like sacrificing INT, which reduces considerably the choice of potential familiar: which freely intelligent creature will willingly accept to be transformed in a familiar?

Originally Posted by Nightshade

...
Actually, the summon and control aren't a big deal if you fail it, other than having to try again. The only one you really don't want to goof up--like all enchantments--is making the matrix. And as I said, Ceremony can help with all of them.
...

Yes ceremony can and does help, but as it is ceremonies, it uses days, not rounds, which is a problem in itself because of the cost of those needed days, and of the endurance problem.
And doing the summon, but failing the control can have dire consequences, like a possession.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

...
But that's your deal; see my comment above.
...

Yes, this is my deal, and I have explained why: losing a Intellect spirit fully loaded in spells is costly, to say the least.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

...
Vastly overstated, because I saw it done for far less than 20 to 30 Power. It does require all the spells, but since a sorcerer's all about the spells in the first place, that's not any harder than any other collection he needs to pick up.
...

As I have already explained, no he hasn't. On the average, he has 7 spells to start with. To be usable like you say, he need at least 4, so it is a minimum of 18 hard to gain spells.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

...
And if he actually needed all that power, or needed all the spells at the level you're claiming, that'd be true. He doesn't. It can be done to a problematic level for as little as about 10 points of Pow (and whatever he needed to spend on his familiar in the first place). And from that point on he's done the heavy lifting part, as all he has to do for the rest is the new spell matrices.

Not my experience.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Actually, spirit magic is the _least_ efficient in some ways (in some ways its good because spirit magic tends to have the least overhead and everyone has it); it takes too long to do and lasts too short a time. Sorcery has long duration potential, and divine magic, if you have enough of it, is _very_ quick to put up, since casting time doesn't care about how many points of it you're putting up (I think, though I could be misremembering, they can also cast them on multiple targets at once if they're all within range). In addition, to have spirit magic success chance the same as the Priest's with his divine magic you have to have a 19 power, which is hard to keep if you're regularly reinforcing a fetch or making any enchantments of your own.
...

For a shaman, 1 round is sufficient to have all the effects up. It is not very long, but I agree it is not up full time. The 19 POW is not a problem for a spirit, that the shaman has no trouble to find.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

...
I mistyped on the points in my post, and even one Int spirit is enough to hold 3-4 spells, which is sufficient for this to start being a problem.
...

No problem for the typo.
Considering the number of spells needed, I disagree on the 2nd point.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

...
Keep in mind that the spirit magic control spells are useless in combat, so only the divine or sorcerous ones could even try this, and frankly, there's better things to do with a round that grab at one Power or Int spirit (especially since the latter, which is the more effective one to grab, is going to have its full magic points since its user can't use them). So no, this was not a particularly common tactic (since it required someone to know it was there to grab it in the first place, then get the spell off, then have it work, then have it _matter_. This was particularly unlikely to be useful with Power spirits since once combat started, a sorcerer was extremely unlikely to go through all of the available ones anyway, and you couldn't be sure if you were grabbing an already empty one or a full one).
...

Why doing it IN combat. Do it BEFORE the combat. I am not taking the risk.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

...
And I usually _was_ the GM. It was just a waste of time compared to, say, trying to simply take out the sorcerer himself magically, which was about as likely to work and far more effective.
...

In combat, true. Done before the comabt begins is another story.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

...
Not close to as well or consistently, simply because his spells are of too short a duration, and (again, barring lunar magic) because he has to have the full value of any spell he cares to cast.
...

Agreed here, even if I think that for a shaman, the full value is not a problem.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

...
That's in part because you're assuming vastly more Power investment than I saw necessary to start creating the problem. You're also being far more conservative (from what I can tell) about the needed skill values.
...

Possible for the skill values, certainly true for the POW expenditure.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

...
Let me ask a question: does the RQ campaigns you were in have any significant downtime? If not, I can see some of the reasons why you might think some of the above, as this cripples the ability to study skills and to get much use out of Ceremony for ritual skills.
...

You're right, downtime has always been tight. And in my case, finding the spells had to be roleplayed: you can't just tell I'm learning this spell, but you (or at least I) have to find either a teacher or a grimoire. That makes day long ceremonies very impracticle (aggravated by the fatigue problem) to impossible, and very costly, because you can't do the training others are doing and you can't learn new spells (assuming you have access to them).
For me, the order of choice for downtime has always be:
1 - Learning new spells if possible
2 - Training if possible
3 - Long duration ceremony if possible
4 - Study

Originally Posted by Nightshade

...
I can only note I never saw it attractive for anyone locally.

Different players, different experiences. In the last campaign, I was the only one NOT having them (because I used my POW for bindings and matrix).


Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by TRose

One of the reason I have always like shaman , and would gladly take one against a sorcerer , is if you been running him right is that shaman have power to burn because of the fetch. A shaman should have no problem backing up his first spell with enough force to burn through any screen put up by a non shaman. And with double int, his spells may not be as powerful as other types but he should have a versatile list to draw from. Don't forget to use spirit site to pick your targets, and release a few spirits to raise havoc( a wirlvish in a bag a great way to start a fight) and I will do ok. And since my shaman worship Oakfed I had access to fire elementals which always made the bad guys happy.

Agreed here.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by RMS

The power of a shaman isn't in his direct spirit magic (or usually even in his divine magic, if he has it), but rather should be in his array of various bound spirits: which he can pass off to "buff" up others if he so desires. He's the only one who doesn't need specific magic to go seize a spirit and bend it to his will, and he should have a far wider range of spirit types and powers to choose from than a sorcerer or a divine user. However, I always thought that RQIII did under power starting shamans, to the point were no one wanted to play them, so I went to a mix of RQII and RQIII for starting fetch POW.

I'm not sure that he should be as able in direct confrontation, but he should be completely hell to deal with indirectly. He can wander in on the spirit plane, snipe at someone with spells or spirits and move away without anyone else able to interact with him. Someone mentioned removing spirits from a sorcerer, or anyone else for that matter, and that's something a shaman can do with ease by simply seizing the spirit on the spirit plane and releasing it. There's no need to do that "during combat", and yes it's not productive and also doesn't fit the "picture" of what shamans do so that's a feature for me.
...

This is the best description of the possible usage of a shaman in combat I've ever seen. And as we are arguing on the possible buff up of party member (typically an indirect usage), I completely agree the shaman is not at a disadvantage.


Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by TRose

I did not say shaman had better countermagic then others. I said because they have more power starting at mid level so they can burn through other people defenses more easy . And shaman tend to gain power faster then others if played right. I tended to keep my power around 15 and then feed power to the fetch until I felt the fetch was powerful enough ,as this gave me a good chance for power increase rolls and still enough power to succeed on most spells I cast. This also meant over time my Shaman could have more power to make magic items since I would make more power increase rolls. And in most areas there are plenty of different spirits that can provide shaman with spells to cast. Add to the fact since shaman learn how to summon spell teaching spirits they can easy learn what ever spells they want with no problem , unlike a sorcerer who has to find a teacher or book to learn from.
Might add one big draw back for sorcerers should always be that just because you want to learn a spell does not mean there some body at the local bar that can teach you it. A big restriction on Sorcerers should be on how they learn spells.

So true on all the points.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by RMS

Sorry, but it's not nonsense. Glorantha is the only world with any level of detail that has ever been developed with the RQ rules. Fantasy Earth

And if that was in the actual game box, it'd be relevant; but since it isn't, it has just about nothing to do with how many people played the game, and a such arguments based on mechanics such as specific spells and what rune lords do has no bearing on the general discussion

wasn't clear to you in my post and that's what you reacted to. I've played tons of RQ outside the "Glorantha" too, but the magic system (as well as the rest of the rules) still work the same, unless someone explicitly changes something. Once someone uses "I'm not talking about Glorantha" as an

Except it doesn't, because Glorantha adds an enormous amount of spells that color this, and has various baggage attached to sorcerers to boot. The fact the basics are the same doesn't matter when the devil is in the details.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by RMS

Why do we have to stick to those? Look, if you wanted

Because otherwise you end up bringing in magical elements that _simply weren't present_ in the games where this was a problem, such as divine spells, the presence of rune lords, and various constraints because of the cultural limits of Gloranthan sorcerors that simply aren't present in the basic game. That was the basis of my objection to your post; I'm not talking about what sorcerers work out like in a game where divine mages and other types get a lot more bennies than the do in the base game (and don't doubt for a minute than they do in games using the Gloranthan material) because that has just nothing to do with anyone who doesn't have it. Its tantamount to saying "If you make all the other types significantly stronger, its less of a problem." Well, duh.

(well boxes at the time) with all of the rules being discussed. I've never known anyone who ran any RQIII game without a good number, if not all, of the magic rules out of GoG, even if not playing in the world. Most of those came straight out of the RQII core, in some form or another, and so the inclusion seems more evident from that.

So basically its my fault that you walked in with assumptions beyond the basic ones? Your experience isn't mine, and since yours was the one that required a suppliment, I'd say _yours_ was the job to mention you were assuming the Gloranthan material, not mine.
[quote]

So, in other words, you want to pick and choose what parts are allowed into the discussion, and only want those that support your point. I don't have an

Given that the spells I allowed you to mention supported _your_ point, not mine, I'd lose the self-righteousness here.