Dare I ask?

[Shaira]

Hi all,

This is a bit of a tangent, but I was wondering if anyone has had any thoughts about the slightly artifical restrictions the WoW magic system has when differentiating between "trained" and "untrained" magic users.

I'm not sure if BRP uses the same restriction - I'm guessing it does. I was wondering if it's actually necessary. Sure, it effectively creates a magic-user "character class", which might be good in certain games, but are there any game balance reasons in the BRP rules why it would be necessary? Specially given that spells are effectively skills in that system?

Just wondering what people think.

Cheers,

Sarah

[TRose]

Thanks for the info there gus. Will have to take a look at it when I get my copy.

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by badcat

I am more annoyed by the publishing model, the printing gaffes, the prices, and the attitude than by any of the rules differences. ...

This is exactly what I had in mind when I spoke of the quality to price ratio.
I don't accept to pay the price they are asking for with the low quality of their books (binding, printing, proofreading).

Of course, the fact that I don't like their rules does not makes me more lenient, but if the rules were the only problem, I would buy the world books, which I don't because of my bad experience with their products.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Rurik

...
Personally, I think sorcery is one of the (relatively few) areas MRQ clearly improved on RQ3.

Personally, I think this is one of the rule they decreased quality the more.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[NickMiddleton]

Originally Posted by Shaira

Hi all,

This is a bit of a tangent, but I was wondering if anyone has had any thoughts about the slightly artificial restrictions the WoW magic system has when differentiating between "trained" and "untrained" magic users.

It was certainly in the play test draft I saw, but I haven't seen "edition zero" yet, so I don't know whether it made it in to the "finished" book - I hope so.

I'm not sure if BRP uses the same restriction - I'm guessing it does. I was wondering if it's actually necessary. Sure, it effectively creates a magic-user "character class", which might be good in certain games, but are there any game balance reasons in the BRP rules why it would be necessary? Specially given that spells are effectively skills in that system?

It does however add to the specific "feel" of that magic system in play. Yes, technically you get a similar net effect from the fact that spells are skills and characters have a limited pool of skill points - but like the old Stormbrinegr INT+POW requirements I like the fact that with "Magic" (which I tend to refer to as Wizardry) there is a clear divide between those who have dedicated their lives to study and practice of magic.

Cheers,

Nick

[Shaira]

Originally Posted by NickMiddleton

It does however add to the specific "feel" of that magic system in play. Yes, technically you get a similar net effect from the fact that spells are skills and characters have a limited pool of skill points - but like the old Stormbrinegr INT+POW requirements I like the fact that with "Magic" (which I tend to refer to as Wizardry) there is a clear divide between those who have dedicated their lives to study and practice of magic.

Absolutely - and the "feel" is of course crucial. I think what concerns me most though is the "all or nothing" aspect, which for me runs counter to a lot of the philosophy of BRP. Frex, in Stormbringer, you need a min POW 16 to cast spells, and your INT limits how many spells you can "know". Theoretically, if you start with POW 12, say, and somehow make it up to 16, you can then seek out some magic guy and start learning spells. Obviously it's going to be a major pain to get any good, not to mention expensive in both time and money, but it can be done. In other words, there are only really game realities obstructing you, and a couple of rules restrictions, not blocks, which keeps the open-ended nature of BRP characters.

The WoW approach railroads your character very much into a "character class" model, where either you get magical training or you don't, and that "fixes" your character. I'm unclear if a character without magical training could get it in play, for example; maybe that's something I'll get from the BRP rules when they (finally) turn up.

I'm just brainstorming, really. When playing RQ I always liked the fact that, in principle, your character was capable of anything, but just needed to develop the skills - there were never any overt rules-imposed blocks on what your character could & couldn't do (no one saying your hamfisted sword-wielding barbarian couldn't _eventually_ learn how to pick locks, for example). I think I'm trying to keep that feel in my game.

Cheers,

Sarah

[NickMiddleton]

Originally Posted by Shaira

The WoW approach railroads your character very much into a "character class" model, where either you get magical training or you don't, and that "fixes" your character.

Which, I've always had teh impression was pretty much a deliberate choice on Steve Perrin's part when he created the WoW rules.

I'm unclear if a character without magical training could get it in play, for example; maybe that's something I'll get from the BRP rules when they (finally) turn up.

The brief paragraph in the play test document I have about "non-mages" with spells doesn't make it clear. Instinctively, I'd adapt some of the stuff about Magicians learning new spells etc. to cover a non-mage learning more - but I've not really though beyond that (other than probably requiring an stint as a Wizard's Apprentice...).

I'm just brainstorming, really. When playing RQ I always liked the fact that, in principle, your character was capable of anything, but just needed to develop the skills - there were never any overt rules-imposed blocks on what your character could & couldn't do (no one saying your hamfisted sword-wielding barbarian couldn't _eventually_ learn how to pick locks, for example). I think I'm trying to keep that feel in my game.

Well, one can easily ignore the limits on non-mages if one wants... Plus I've not seen anything in the play test draft that would make using the RQIII Magic book systems with BRP remotely difficult.

Cheers,

Nick Middleton

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Kloster

Personally, I think this is one of the rule they decreased quality the more.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

I'm curious as to why - I don't see any way MRQ Sorcery is worse than RQ3. I do see ways Rune magic is worse, and they totally borked Divine Magic, but I think they did pretty good with Sorcery.

A lot of people complained about RQ3 Sorcery being broken. Too weak at low power levels, way to powerful at high levels, easy to abuse, requires gobs of stored power, and too complex. Personally, I liked RQ3 Sorcery and never held any of the aforementioned 'faults' against it - it never caused problems in my games.

But I find MRQ addresses the above issues well without giving up flavor or functionality - it is more powerful at lower levels, less powerful at higher levels, less subject to abuse (speaking of the free int/spirit loophole), and is simpler to use. I like that magnitude is based more on skill than raw MP - a skilled sorcerer can cast powerful spells a number of times with his own MP without relying on stored MP.

So I'm just curious as to what you don't like about it. I'm not challenging your assertion, and obviously personal taste is a factor, but I don't see any way they fucked it up (like, you know, a number of other things).

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Rurik

...
A lot of people complained about RQ3 Sorcery being broken. Too weak at low power levels, way to powerful at high levels, easy to abuse, requires gobs of stored power, and too complex. Personally, I liked RQ3 Sorcery and never held any of the aforementioned 'faults' against it - it never caused problems in my games.
...

Same for me. We don't find it too complex. More than spirit or divine, that's for sure, but not too complex. And it never caused problems.

Originally Posted by Rurik

...

But I find MRQ addresses the above issues well without giving up flavor or functionality - it is more powerful at lower levels, less powerful at higher levels, less subject to abuse (speaking of the free int/spirit loophole), and is simpler to use. I like that magnitude is based more on skill than raw MP - a skilled sorcerer can cast powerful spells a number of times with his own MP without relying on stored MP.
...

This is exactly my main point (and is of course a matter of taste): it is more powerful at lower levels, less powerful at higher levels.
One of the points we like with sorcery is that it is in line with the rest of the system, that is start small and grow.
I agree it is simpler to use, but I think that for RQIII, the raw power is not mainly based on MP. You need MP (often stored), Free INT and skills (roll is made against the lowest of the percentage).

And by the way, what is the free int/spirit loophole?

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Jason Durall]

Originally Posted by Shaira

This is a bit of a tangent, but I was wondering if anyone has had any thoughts about the slightly artifical restrictions the WoW magic system has when differentiating between "trained" and "untrained" magic users.

I'm not sure if BRP uses the same restriction - I'm guessing it does. I was wondering if it's actually necessary. Sure, it effectively creates a magic-user "character class", which might be good in certain games, but are there any game balance reasons in the BRP rules why it would be necessary? Specially given that spells are effectively skills in that system?

To be clear, there are two spell-using systems.

The Magic system does differentiate between magicians and non-magicians, but allows non-magicians to learn spells. It also has a section called "Becoming a Magician" with guidelines for a non-magician to become a magician. Furthermore, there is absolutely nothing stopping a GM from allowing any player to become a magician and spending their skill points freely.

The Sorcery system has an entry requirement of POW 16+, but if the PC has that, the sky is the limit (or rather, his/her INT is the limit). Sorcery spells don't use skill points, so they're completely outside that field of advancement.