Dare I ask?

[Rurik]

The free int loophole involved storing all your spells in bound spirits so you had massive ammounts of free int, therefore being able to to cast spells with huge durations and magnitudes - usually to cast powerful buffs on the entire party that lasted months or years.

I just had a long discussion about this a few weeks back - I think on RPG net - about RQ3 Sorcery. I was holding it wasn't broken - I'd always assumed that it was working as designed. Someone who actually gamed with and did some work for Chaosium back in the 80's swears that the designers and playtesters let it slip through testing and it was broken - they never actaully envisioned people having enough Free Int to do what I've described.

I still have a hard time believing a game designer can write a table that has something like: Duration 20+ years and NOT realise people are going use sorcery in that way.

[TRose]

Originally Posted by Rurik

I'm curious as to why - I don't see any way MRQ Sorcery is worse than RQ3. I do see ways Rune magic is worse, and they totally borked Divine Magic, but I think they did pretty good with Sorcery.

).

I Agree there. Divine magic is broken in MRQ as far as I'm concern as its impossible for a Priest to get a good amount of spells unless he brings his power down to a ridiculous level. I did like the idea that you need to integrate runes to cast rune spells, but not that they where physical object you had to carry around or that each rune required a different skill to cast .
I was more satified with the sorcery system I might add as I thought the ranges where off in RQ3 as any powerful mage had a longer range then a ICBM . I would like to see a little more range then in MRQ but i can work with it.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by TRose

I would like to see a little more range then in MRQ but i can work with it.

That is what familiars are for...

I agree though. The linear progression in MRQ is much more limited at the high end than the factorial progression in RQ3 - probably the best solution in this case would have been arbitrarily assigning values for range and duration rather than applying a formula.

But it does remove the long term buffs - which really were a chore. Cast a 15 point buff spell a few times, rest and recharge all your pow storage, cast a few more times, rest and recharge, wash rinse repeat until your whole party is buffed. Now keep track of all the durations. A pain really - I mean who wouldn't do it if it meant running around with a bunch of physical and magical protection and damage boosting up all the time - but a pain none the less.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Rurik

That is what familiars are for...

I agree though. The linear progression in MRQ is much more limited at the high end than the factorial progression in RQ3 - probably the best solution in this case would have been arbitrarily assigning values for range and duration rather than applying a formula.

Or they could just use a formula that progress slower. Instead of doubling every INT increase by 50% and or double every other INT. That turns a INT15 spell from a Duration of 32 weeks down to 1 day (the same as INT 8)

Originally Posted by Rurik

But it does remove the long term buffs - which really were a chore. Cast a 15 point buff spell a few times, rest and recharge all your pow storage, cast a few more times, rest and recharge, wash rinse repeat until your whole party is buffed. Now keep track of all the durations. A pain really - I mean who wouldn't do it if it meant running around with a bunch of physical and magical protection and damage boosting up all the time - but a pain none the less.

I used to like those. RQ3 was one of the few gaes where a sorcerer could make a liviing casting spells. I didn't see much "buffing up the party" stuff. Basically the rest & recoup time tended to offset the durations too much. Going with your INT 15 example, even if the mage makes all the rolls, by the time he buffs off a party of 5 and rests up, he is down to a 2 day duration left for an INT 1 spell. Not worth the trouble.

[Rurik]

While trouble it was, people found it worth the trouble - trust me. I've seen it some, and seen it complained about a lot. And I really don't mind it that bad - you had to be very powerful to make it worthwhile at any maginitude beyond a few points - and then what is the point of being very powerful if you can't be, well, very powerful?

But it was a time waster and bookeeping pain.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Rurik

While trouble it was, people found it worth the trouble - trust me. I've seen it some, and seen it complained about a lot. And I really don't mind it that bad - you had to be very powerful to make it worthwhile at any maginitude beyond a few points - and then what is the point of being very powerful if you can't be, well, very powerful?

But it was a time waster and bookeeping pain.

My players usually weren't savvy enough to figure out neat stuff like that too. Once I had someone who was going into the desert shell out some money for a long lasting spell.

BTW, I didn't catch this before, but a long term Haste spell in RQ3 is a great way to disable someone. A INT2 spell would knock someone out in under 10 minutes. And keep them out for the duration!

So that's how Yrkoon did it!

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Rurik

The free int loophole involved storing all your spells in bound spirits so you had massive ammounts of free int, therefore being able to to cast spells with huge durations and magnitudes - usually to cast powerful buffs on the entire party that lasted months or years.

I just had a long discussion about this a few weeks back - I think on RPG net - about RQ3 Sorcery. I was holding it wasn't broken - I'd always assumed that it was working as designed. Someone who actually gamed with and did some work for Chaosium back in the 80's swears that the designers and playtesters let it slip through testing and it was broken - they never actaully envisioned people having enough Free Int to do what I've described.

I still have a hard time believing a game designer can write a table that has something like: Duration 20+ years and NOT realise people are going use sorcery in that way.

It wasn't that they thought it'd never occur at all; its that they thought it would, in practice, need your old greybearded tower mage who wasn't going to upset balance much and just be a plot device. In part, I think they simply didn't see the implications of Intelligence Spirits and/or enchantments on the process.

But the net effect was that sorcery was completely lobsided, in the same way that original D&D magic was, and unlike either of the other two RQ3 magic systems; at the bottom end it was next to useless and at the top end it was such a generic force multiplier that it mattered more than almost anything anyone else in the party could do.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

I used to like those. RQ3 was one of the few gaes where a sorcerer could make a liviing casting spells. I didn't see much "buffing up the party" stuff. Basically the rest & recoup time tended to offset the durations too much. Going with your INT 15 example, even if the mage makes all the rolls, by the time he buffs off a party of 5 and rests up, he is down to a 2 day duration left for an INT 1 spell. Not worth the trouble.

Look at what one that really gets into binding spirits can do. The combination of this mechanic with Power and Int spirits is where the mage could really take off; he could do all this and be ready to go the next day. All it really required was a good Int in the first place, and when you're rolling 2d6+6, there's enough varience that isn't that hard to come by (and it wasn't even that difficult for those built out of points if they were willing to stint a bit on App and Str, say.).

Without Int spirits and a lot of sources of renewable magic points, it wouldn't have been nearly as severe, but RQ's always had a lot of those; if anything it'd have been even worse in RQ2 because there was less overhead on bound spirits than there was in RQ3 spirit binding.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

My players usually weren't savvy enough to figure out neat stuff like that too. Once I had someone who was going into the desert shell out some money for a long lasting spell.

And that's the issue; a lot of games get through design and playtest because no one really explores them fully (this is particularly true with magical and technological systems with a lot of twiddly bits), and then out in the great wide world, someone finds a trick, at which point it becomes a big problem.

[Rurik]

Which is all why I find MRQ Sorcery refreshing. I had no problem playing with RQ3 sorcery, and the counter to a good mage is always a better mage, so you could always keep things challenging.

But the shorter range and duration of MRQ Sorcery make the whole long term casting thing obsolete, and it's simpler use is nice in play.

Even starting casters are moderately effective while 100%+ sorcerers, though still really powerful, are not gods.