Opposed rolls

[fmitchell]

Wait, so the only argument is between "highest without going over" and "greatest difference in the same success level"? "Absolute lowest in the same level" was never a consideration?

Can we argue about something more relevant, like whether we crack open our morning eggs from the big end vs. the little end? (BTW, I like my eggs scrambled.)

[Nightshade]

A complication is a problem, in the end, because it makes things more complex; otherwise it'd be largely irrelevant.

And I'm aware you weren't an RQ player, but its one of the reasons the complaints on this issue are as foreign to some of us as it is; it seems to present as a problem we've never seen as one, and have trouble understanding why others do.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by fmitchell

Wait, so the only argument is between "highest without going over" and "greatest difference in the same success level"? "Absolute lowest in the same level" was never a consideration?

Can we argue about something more relevant, like whether we crack open our morning eggs from the big end vs. the little end? (BTW, I like my eggs scrambled.)

Absolute lowest affects the odds compared to absolute highest and favors the lower skill. That is why when comparing opposed rolls published rules always go with higher roll wins, even in systems where low rolls have traditionally been good - the odds are exactly the same as "Makes roll by most" but there is no need to calculate how much everyone made their roll by.

What about cracking eggs in the middle? And is it really necessary to specify morning eggs? Does anybody change their egg cracking habits at midday?

[NickMiddleton]

Originally Posted by frogspawner

Yep. Harder than not doing so anyway. And it's unnecessary. Why must there always be a winner, immediately? Ties happen.

Because in the vast majority of circumstances that one would model via opposed skill rolls the outcome would be to the advantage of one side or the detriment of the other, if only marginally. Noughts and crosses (or tic-tac-toe) regularly ties - most situations one would be attempting to emulate in an RPG DON'T: someone wins the duel, the guard spots the intruder or the intruder sneaks past the guard, one person performs the best poem in the bardic competition, one person catches more food...

And the opposed roll rule allows for ties with the rule as written anyway: both rolls fail, thus achieving the same degree of success...

Precisely the point about opposed rolls is that whilst one wouldn't use them all the time, there are some (relatively common situations) where the best description of what is happening is that there is a direct competition between two skills - and BRP has never (in any prior Chaosium edition) had an explicit generalised rule for resolving such contests of opposed skills. And whilst it may not be to some people's taste the rule in the new BRP looks remarkably serviceable to me (it is as I said a close variant of my own house rule) and is a fairly common "fix" to the "Dodge problem" in RQIII.

Cheers,

Nick Middleton

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by badcat

No, that's not an issue at all. There is a difference between 'complicated' and a 'complication'...check your dictionary. I have no trouble with opposed rolls, there are simply better ways to run the game. Any game.

And hey, I never was a RQ player, so that doesn't apply either.

Cat, you missed his point. He said "The issue, however, is perceiving this as complicated in the first place."

It's all about perception. Something that you might perceive as as unnecessary, someone else might perceive as important. If often boils down to personal preferences, rather than absolutes.

For instance, many BRP players consider hit location to be an unecessary complication. Others feel that the benefits that hit locatives give outweight the added complexity. Same with the major wound rule, category modfiers, SAN rules and pretty much everything else that's been in one of more versions of the system.

[fmitchell]

Originally Posted by Rurik

Absolute lowest affects the odds compared to absolute highest and favors the lower skill.

Right. I just thought that was one of the options, especially considering HeroQuest adopts it. (The Mastery mechanic compensates somewhat, but it's still counterintuitive.)

Hence the Big-Endian vs. Little-Endian reference: if probabilities work out the same, I say choose the one that requires less thought. Yes, it's only one measly subtraction, and even those of us who are slow at arithmetic can manage it ... but it's one more mental step at the gaming table, when there are more important things to use brainpower on.

[Chaot]

Originally Posted by fmitchell

Can we argue about something more relevant, like whether we crack open our morning eggs from the big end vs. the little end? (BTW, I like my eggs scrambled.)

But scrambling is far too complex and it slows down the morning egg routine. It can also necessitate an associated bowl and fork in order to blend yolk and white, as well as some milk to give it body and perhaps some chopped onion and ham for flavor. Whereas, if you go with a fried or over easy egg, it only entails the cracking and the dropping of the egg onto the heated pan and a flip to ensure that both sides are done.

Originally Posted by Rurik

Does anybody change their egg cracking habits at midday?

Midday crackings are undoubtedly hard boiled eggs, in which case, putting the egg in your palm and rolling it against a flat surface is the most efficient way to thoroughly crack the shell...

Wait, what were we talking about again...?

[badcat]

About how some people think you have to break the game to make an omelet.

[soltakss]

Originally Posted by frogspawner

Yep. Harder than not doing so anyway. And it's unnecessary. Why must there always be a winner, immediately? Ties happen.

Sure. If you don't mind ties then just say that the same level of success has a tie.

What that means in practice, however, is open to interpretation. The classic "Hide vs Spot Hidden/Scan" means the Hider has successfully hidden and the Spotter has successfully made a Scan. Does this mean he is seen or not? With Opposed Rolls, you work out how well he has hidden and how well he has been seen and compare the result.

Originally Posted by frogspawner

Same here. It's all about the feel. I think it's the way it'd spoil the immediacy of a 'Dramatic Moment' (slightly).

Depends on the game. Sometimes a few seconds working out if someone has succeeds increases the dramatic tension.

Originally Posted by frogspawner

But a 90% attack will get past a 30% parry about (90x70=) 63% of the time. So the same numbers will give very different probabilities if you use opposed rolls. How can that be right?

Very easily.

First of all, Opposed Rolls are not the same as Attack/Parry rolls, so don't get the two confused.

A 90% skill has a better chance of scoring a critical or special than a 30% chance. So, it has a higher chance of winning an Opposed Contest using Levels of Success. Also, in the case of a tie, a 90% skill has more chance of making the roll by a higher margin than a 30% skill. The highest margin a 30% skill has of making a roll is 23% (a roll of 7) but a 90% skill has a highest margin of 71 (a roll of 19). In fact, any roll between 19 and 66 will beat the 30% skill on a normal success.

Originally Posted by frogspawner

That's great - 'spot on'! All that's needed is a good interpretation of the tied situation, like this! Call it a draw?

The trouble is you can't always draw. Sometimes a draw makes no sense whatsoever. I suppose you could reroll on a draw but that might spoil the dramatic moment again.

[soltakss]

Some more concrete examples.

This shows the successes when just looking at Levels of Success.

Here, a critical beats a special beats a normal success beats a failure beats a fumble. If the same level of success is rolled by both parties, it is treated as a tie.

As always, the first result is the chance of Skill1 winning, the second is the chance of Skill2 winning. So, a 90% vs 30% contest will result in the 90% skill winning 68% of the time, the 30% skill winning 8% of the time and a tie the remaining time.

As a matter of interest, these are calculated by calculating the successes of every dice combination from (1,1) to (100,100) and then totalling the numbers of victories. It is better than using Probabilities as these are actual results.

Looking at these, you would have to reroll a lot of times or just accept that there would be a lot of ties.

10% vs 10% gives 13%/13%
10% vs 20% gives 12%/22%
10% vs 30% gives 11%/31%
10% vs 40% gives 9%/40%
10% vs 50% gives 8%/48%
10% vs 60% gives 7%/57%
10% vs 70% gives 6%/66%
10% vs 80% gives 4%/74%
10% vs 90% gives 3%/83%
20% vs 10% gives 22%/12%
20% vs 20% gives 20%/20%
20% vs 30% gives 18%/28%
20% vs 40% gives 16%/36%
20% vs 50% gives 14%/44%
20% vs 60% gives 12%/52%
20% vs 70% gives 10%/59%
20% vs 80% gives 7%/67%
20% vs 90% gives 6%/75%
30% vs 10% gives 31%/11%
30% vs 20% gives 28%/18%
30% vs 30% gives 25%/25%
30% vs 40% gives 22%/32%
30% vs 50% gives 20%/39%
30% vs 60% gives 16%/47%
30% vs 70% gives 14%/54%
30% vs 80% gives 11%/61%
30% vs 90% gives 8%/68%
40% vs 10% gives 40%/9%
40% vs 20% gives 36%/16%
40% vs 30% gives 32%/22%
40% vs 40% gives 28%/28%
40% vs 50% gives 25%/35%
40% vs 60% gives 21%/41%
40% vs 70% gives 18%/48%
40% vs 80% gives 14%/54%
40% vs 90% gives 11%/60%
50% vs 10% gives 48%/8%
50% vs 20% gives 44%/14%
50% vs 30% gives 39%/20%
50% vs 40% gives 35%/25%
50% vs 50% gives 31%/31%
50% vs 60% gives 26%/36%
50% vs 70% gives 22%/42%
50% vs 80% gives 17%/47%
50% vs 90% gives 13%/53%
60% vs 10% gives 57%/7%
60% vs 20% gives 52%/12%
60% vs 30% gives 47%/16%
60% vs 40% gives 41%/21%
60% vs 50% gives 36%/26%
60% vs 60% gives 31%/31%
60% vs 70% gives 26%/36%
60% vs 80% gives 20%/40%
60% vs 90% gives 15%/45%
70% vs 10% gives 66%/6%
70% vs 20% gives 59%/10%
70% vs 30% gives 54%/14%
70% vs 40% gives 48%/18%
70% vs 50% gives 42%/22%
70% vs 60% gives 36%/26%
70% vs 70% gives 30%/30%
70% vs 80% gives 24%/34%
70% vs 90% gives 18%/38%
80% vs 10% gives 74%/4%
80% vs 20% gives 67%/7%
80% vs 30% gives 61%/11%
80% vs 40% gives 54%/14%
80% vs 50% gives 47%/17%
80% vs 60% gives 40%/20%
80% vs 70% gives 34%/24%
80% vs 80% gives 27%/27%
80% vs 90% gives 20%/30%
90% vs 10% gives 83%/3%
90% vs 20% gives 75%/6%
90% vs 30% gives 68%/8%
90% vs 40% gives 60%/11%
90% vs 50% gives 53%/13%
90% vs 60% gives 45%/15%
90% vs 70% gives 38%/18%
90% vs 80% gives 30%/20%
90% vs 90% gives 23%/23%