Dodge Skill vs Parry Skill

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Well in RQ3 that you had to match the level of success kept dogoing down a bit. Someone got a special and you were in trouble.

Which is why it was a common houserule to do it in the success reduces success style opposed check instead, because it meant that Dodge wasn't next to useless the minute someone rolled a crit.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Which is why it was a common houserule to do it in the success reduces success style opposed check instead, because it meant that Dodge wasn't next to useless the minute someone rolled a crit.

We never did that. But then we usually had much better parry scores.

[drohem]

Yes, in RQ3 none of my characters used the Dodge skill; the penalties were too steep, success was a toss up, and starting percentage too low for my tastes. They all developed a parry skill of some sort; usually the Shield skill.

[RMS]

Originally Posted by drohem

Yes, in RQ3 none of my characters used the Dodge skill; the penalties were too steep, success was a toss up, and starting percentage too low for my tastes. They all developed a parry skill of some sort; usually the Shield skill.

The only problem there is that parry, even with a shield, is completely worthless against certain opponents in RQ. Damage bonuses and knockback assure that parrying a giant or dragon is pretty much the same thing as not having a defense at all.

[Gnarsh]

Originally Posted by RMS

The only problem there is that parry, even with a shield, is completely worthless against certain opponents in RQ. Damage bonuses and knockback assure that parrying a giant or dragon is pretty much the same thing as not having a defense at all.

Well, that's the tradeoff, isn't it? In some situations, dodge was innately superior (high damage foes), while in other's parry was (low to medium damage, with better defense against specials and crits). Most of the time, you're going to be better off parrying, but if you're fighting something that will blow right through that shield parry and whack a location off/down, you might just want to dodge. Sure, if the other guy specials or crits, you're probably in trouble, but if he doesn't, you're better off.

The other advantage to dodge is that once you get a sufficiently high skill with it, it becomes incredibly useful in conjunction with higher AP armor. Assuming you use the "success levels subtract" method (which we do), then if you succeed at dodging, your opponent can *never* critical you. If you've got good AP on your worn armor, this can be huge. It's quite possible to end up being better off dodging against a critical hit from an opponent, then parrying.

How you balance these two will have a lot to do with how your game is set. The balance between worn armor versus ap on shields in your game will be a significant determinant as to which skill is "better", and should be taken into account when deciding what sort of rules to use.

[Atgxtg]

[quote=Gnarsh;7172]Well, that's the tradeoff, isn't it? In some situations, dodge was innately superior (high damage foes), while in other's parry was (low to medium damage, with better defense against specials and crits). Most of the time, you're going to be better off parrying, but if you're fighting something that will blow right through that shield parry and whack a location off/down, you might just want to dodge. Sure, if the other guy specials or crits, you're probably in trouble, but if he doesn't, you're better off.

Not exactly. A good parry in RQ can stop the high damage attacks. Truthfully, and this has been raised elsewhere. The RQ parry isn't. It is more of a block. A real parry would work against such attack, but is harder to pull off. In RQ terms there is the rule for special and critical parries and that keeps parries ahead. That and the fact that parry chance is usualy much higher than Dodge, especially after ENC.

Originally Posted by Gnarsh

The other advantage to dodge is that once you get a sufficiently high skill with it, it becomes incredibly useful in conjunction with higher AP armor. Assuming you use the "success levels subtract" method (which we do), then if you succeed at dodging, your opponent can *never* critical you. If you've got good AP on your worn armor, this can be huge. It's quite possible to end up being better off dodging against a critical hit from an opponent, then parrying.

If you are running that house rule. The subtraction method wasn't part of RQ. You example is a good reason why I'm not thrilled with it in BRP.

Originally Posted by Gnarsh

How you balance these two will have a lot to do with how your game is set. The balance between worn armor versus ap on shields in your game will be a significant determinant as to which skill is "better", and should be taken into account when deciding what sort of rules to use.

Quite true. I think that is also true of a lot of the combat options. Just using hit locations makes a big difference, as does strike ranks.

[Gnarsh]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Not exactly. A good parry in RQ can stop the high damage attacks. Truthfully, and this has been raised elsewhere. The RQ parry isn't. It is more of a block. A real parry would work against such attack, but is harder to pull off. In RQ terms there is the rule for special and critical parries and that keeps parries ahead. That and the fact that parry chance is usualy much higher than Dodge, especially after ENC.

I was responding to folks talking about the relative usefulness of dodge and parry in RQ3. In RQ3, all a successful parry does is give you more armor points between the damage and your skin. A critical parry is great, but anything less only adds points. If you're fighting something really big or even just with a lot of offensive magic up, parry can be less then stellar. It's just not that hard in RQ3 to run into foes that can do average damage in the 30-40 range. Against that a shield parry may not make much difference (again, depending on where you put ap values in your game of course!).


Even if you don't play that level of success on a dodge subtracts, you're still putting yourself in a situation where the other guy has to special to hurt you. If he can blow through your shield parry on a normal hit, this is always going to be a better deal.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Gnarsh

I was responding to folks talking about the relative usefulness of dodge and parry in RQ3. In RQ3, all a successful parry does is give you more armor points between the damage and your skin. A critical parry is great, but anything less only adds points. If you're fighting something really big or even just with a lot of offensive magic up, parry can be less then stellar. It's just not that hard in RQ3 to run into foes that can do average damage in the 30-40 range. Against that a shield parry may not make much difference (again, depending on where you put ap values in your game of course!).

30-40 points average.
I don't know how hard those foes were to find. No one went out looking for them.

I can see your points. But, that "just put more AP in the way" sort of underestimates the effect. With most foes that was enough to soak up the damage.

If going up against the 30-40's (how appropriate now only does it sound like motor oil, but with those damages it is probably something that will become motor oil) there was some magic like Great Parry in RQ that helped. You can never have too much armoring enchantment of your shield!

Against a dragon, I once saw somene go with the layered armor approach. Double mail over doublet under plate. He was encumbered, the horse was burderened, but it took a lot off that dragon claw. At least until you drop from exhaustion.

Originally Posted by Rurik

Even if you don't play that level of success on a dodge subtracts, you're still putting yourself in a situation where the other guy has to special to hurt you. If he can blow through your shield parry on a normal hit, this is always going to be a better deal.

True., but few foes can. A shield and moderate armor is good for 16 points or so. A relaible 16 is often better than a maybe dodge. Especially if you have protection up on you AND your shield.

[drohem]

Originally Posted by RMS

The only problem there is that parry, even with a shield, is completely worthless against certain opponents in RQ. Damage bonuses and knockback assure that parrying a giant or dragon is pretty much the same thing as not having a defense at all.

A damn fine reason to avoid that kind of confrontation, or have massive DR (although, it won't help with the knockback).

Oh, and I should also point out that we didn't use standard damage bonus. Frankly, we felt it was too crazy. We had our own modified damage bonus chart that was significantly less in potential damage.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Originally posted by Rurik

As flattered as I am, that quote two posts upthread is not mine.