Comparative Systemology

[Joseph Paul]

Originally Posted by threedeesix

Sorry Joseph, for some reason I thought the point was that no one would want a .45 as the .22 did more damage over the course of a round. But damn it, I still made a good point.

Rod Leary

OK I am confused and not getting the reason for the big smiley. At the risk of spoilng the joke could you please explain it? Also are you related to SD, I noticed the 'Leary' on the end of both your names.

[Trifletraxor]

Originally Posted by Jason Durall

This is the last post I'll make to this thread, as I'm going to significantly reduce my presence on these forums with the completion my BRP edits.

Good to hear the edits are completed!
Sorry to hear that we will hear less from you.

If someone were to approach me with advice writing materials for BRP, the first thing I'd tell them is "You will not be able to please everyone, and knowing that, you should probably stay off the forums altogether. Don't even read them."

Over the past month, I've seen several potential authors tell me they've seen the response here and lost interest. Rather than thinking "I'd like to write for that game line", they're thinking "What's the point if the fans will hate it before they see a word of it? Who needs the hassle?"

That's harsh. I can understand you have had a rought time and all, but the respons on this forum to the publication of the Basic Roleplaying book have actually been massively positive. Even those who say they strongly disagree with some selected game mechanics in the book, and those who see RQ3 as the pinnacle of Roleplaying Design, say they will buy the new book. That should at least mean something.

SGL.

[Trifletraxor]

I know I'm happy with the new book at least!

SGL.

[frogspawner]

Originally Posted by Jason Durall

This is the last post I'll make to this thread, as I'm going to significantly reduce my presence on these forums with the completion my BRP edits.
...
"What's the point if the fans will hate it before they see a word of it? Who needs the hassle?"

I think he's stressed, guys. I hope you're ashamed of yourselves!

Originally Posted by Jason Durall

I'll walk you through a combo of the options...

• Hit Points Per Location in addition to general HP... I don't use 'em
• Fatigue Points and Sanity... I don't use 'em
• Armor per Hit Location is easy enough to add, but what if the GM wants random armor? ...I don't use 'em
• Heroic Hit Points doubles HP ...I don't use 'em
• Splitting Attack and Parry Skills... ...I don't use 'em
• Skill Category Modifiers - ...I don't use 'em
• Simpler Skill Bonuses - ok, I do use a version of these (called "characteristics")
• Increased Personal Skill Points, Cultural Modifiers, EDU/Knowledge rolls, etc. - ...I don't use 'em
• Skill Ratings Over 100% - ...I don't mind about 'em (just means it's a tough NPC or a TOUGH one!)

From that it looks like the emphasis (or in most cases, de-emphasis) Mr D has been giving BRP is pretty much in line with the way I like to play my games. And this from an RQ2 Grognard. So, for what it's worth, I reckon 'the boy done good'.

[The Venomous Pao]

I'll just repeat myself by saying that I think BRP looks great. I'm a happy owner (and reader) of Edition Zero and I look forward to the eventual release of the final version. I expect I'll get some very nice gaming in with BRP, enjoying the options and elegance of the system to the utmost.

So cheers to Jason and the rest of the folks involved in bringing this out-of-print goodness back to the world. It's no fault of theirs if people are happier whinging (especially about things they haven't looked at first hand) than they are playing.

On that note, I've decided that the negativity among certain folks on this forum only reinforces my belief that I don't much need to be hanging out on RPG boards. So I don't think I'll be around much anymore, either. Y'all have fun with the internecine warfare, ok?

Oh, and if it turns out my players all decide that a light pistol is the best weapon in the universe then I'll roll with it. Perhaps I'll tweak the rules if that somehow gets to me. Who knows? I'm crazy like that.

[SDLeary]

Originally Posted by Trifletraxor

Good to hear the edits are completed!
Sorry to hear that we will hear less from you.


That's harsh. I can understand you have had a rought time and all, but the respons on this forum to the publication of the Basic Roleplaying book have actually been massively positive. Even those who say they strongly disagree with some selected game mechanics in the book, and those who see RQ3 as the pinnacle of Roleplaying Design, say they will buy the new book. That should at least mean something.

SGL.

<don fire retardant suit; step on soap box>

It is harsh, but it needed to be said. Potential developers WILL look at fora like this one. Now, imagine a company that isn't really familiar with how rabid (yes rabid) we are as fans of this system, but they have heard good things about Chtulhu, perhaps played a bit. Now, drop them into this forum, and look at the overall tone of the threads.

In may cases they are not simply discussions of the merits, or perceived lack. They are rant and flame fests. Honestly, if you were a company interested in producing a product, and saw this, wouldn't you loose interest too?

Now, I'm not saying that this kind of discourse is bad overall. What we have achieved here has been stated in Jason's post above, meaning that we will not have to wait for three months for an extensive list of errata, though I'm sure there will be some.But the signal to noise ratio is way over the top for a product that is still in editing. Especially from those that have yet to see the pre-release/proof copy.

We all need to tone it down a notch or two.

SDLeary

<getting off soap box; walking away with fire retardant suit STILL ON!>

[The Tweaker]

Originally Posted by Jason Durall

I don't know if it's one of your intended goals, but the primary result of all of this intensely negative feedback based on a game book you still haven't seen has made me reevaluate my own availability and willingness to discuss the development of the game in a public forum.

First of all, I hope your father-in-law gets better soon.

I must say that I feel very sorry about your decision, however.

I really enjoyed your presence in this forum. Your willingness to reply to all our questions has probably been decisive in keeping me interested in buying a copy of the book, even with all the delays. Your posts on rpg.net got me interested in the new BRP book in the first place, too.

Originally Posted by Jason Durall

If someone were to approach me with advice writing materials for BRP, the first thing I'd tell them is "You will not be able to please everyone, and knowing that, you should probably stay off the forums altogether. Don't even read them."

I generally enjoy rpg forums, but I am not so sure about this one lately. It was cool at first, but I am getting increasingly tired with all the endless discussions about guns, bullet caliber, inches of armor, realism (duh!) and whining about BRP-not-being-anymore-like-the-Runequest-I-love-so-much.

Now, I understand everyone is entitled to an opinion, and I am willing to admit that some of the discussions have been actually useful and informative, but I am beginning to see how all the negativity from some posters risks alienating new fans (including me). I simply cannot understand all the criticisms levelled against a product which hasn't even been published (in its final form, at least) and all this is reinforcing my belief in that BRP's worst enemies are its own fans (well, some of them... generalizing is always bad).

Originally Posted by The Venomous Pao

On that note, I've decided that the negativity among certain folks on this forum only reinforces my belief that I don't much need to be hanging out on RPG boards. So I don't think I'll be around much anymore, either. Y'all have fun with the internecine warfare, ok?

It is a shame, Pao. I'd really like to see more of your character write-ups, but I understand your reasons. I think I will quietly wait until it is finally released and my copy is in my hands.

Originally Posted by The Venomous Pao

Oh, and if it turns out my players all decide that a light pistol is the best weapon in the universe then I'll roll with it. Perhaps I'll tweak the rules if that somehow gets to me. Who knows? I'm crazy like that.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by SDLeary

In may cases they are not simply discussions of the merits, or perceived lack. They are rant and flame fests. Honestly, if you were a company interested in producing a product, and saw this, wouldn't you loose interest too?

Depends. Have they seen _any_ non-heavily-moderated RPG board? I honestly haven't seen anything on here worse than I've seen on the M&M boards, the Hero boards, the GURPS boards or RPG.net. People get invested in their favorite game systems; and invested people get worked up. And worked up people tend to vent on the Web more than they would in real life. I don't see much sign this is worse than most in that regard. I've gotten my fair share of attitude on here, but to be honest, its more civil than I've seen in many places.

And its _immensely_ more civil than was the routine when I was on the USENET rpg groups.

I think Jason is stressed for perfectly understandable reasons, and this was likely his first experience at being chief author on a new edition of an established game system with an established fan base; some of the mixed blessing present in the sale of Edition 0 has complicated this further. As such his reaction is understandable, but in the end, I don't think he got any more flack than is pretty typical under those circumstances; possibly less on the whole.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by The Tweaker

I generally enjoy rpg forums, but I am not so sure about this one lately. It was cool at first, but I am getting increasingly tired with all the endless discussions about guns, bullet caliber, inches of armor, realism (duh!) and whining about BRP-not-being-anymore-like-the-Runequest-I-love-so-much.

And who twisted you arm to read those threads? Most of the threads where people are discussion details are clearly marked for what they are. So what do you expect when you go there. That those threads are the most active is less a sign of how negative the forum is but more like how the people who don't want to discuss those topics aren't posting much on other topics.

Look at how many of the idea threads that people started that haven't been touched in weeks. No one's posted squat in the western thread, the Planet of the Apes thread, Taslantia, or any of the other "idea" threads.

Then people who don't want to hear negative stuff don't post positive stuff themselves, but come to threads like, oh, this one here, to gripe about negativity. This thread here is a classic case. It was started as a split off from another thread by soltakss to discuss those things that he didn't like about the new BRP.

So anyone who comes into this thread and complains about it being negative is really pretty dense. It would be like going into the Roman thread and complaining about the thread being to Rome-centric. Duh.

Same with the firearms threads.

If someone doesn't want to know what player's reactions to something is, they don't have to go into that thread and read it, do they? If they do go in there, then they have no right to get upset about the reactions, no matter how much they might disagree with them or consider them trivial, nitpicking or whatever.

Should we put a warning on the threads-"This might contain something you might not want to see"? No one put a "medium pistol" to anybody's head and forced them to read that thread. No one made anyone come into this one and read sotlakss's reservations about MRQ.

I don't agree with soltakss opinions all the time. Heck, I probably have the one-line record for disagreeing with him, but I can't fault the man for having them. I might disagree with them, openly or privately, but it it bothers me then it's my own damn fault for going into a thread he started and reading them.

If people don't want to read anything negative then they should join a religious cult where everything is spelled out for them, and stay award from anything where more than one person can express an opinion.

If the vast majority of people's reactions to BRP have been positive, and only a handful have been negative, then getting upset because that minority does wish to express themselves is actually more "whining" that I've heard from the critics.

"Oh no, a small number of people said something I don't want to head in a thread that I didn't have to look at, so I'm going to pick up my toys and go home."

Originally Posted by The Tweaker

Now, I understand everyone is entitled to an opinion, and I am willing to admit that some of the discussions have been actually useful and informative, but I am beginning to see how all the negativity from some posters risks alienating new fans (including me). I simply cannot understand all the criticisms leveled against a product which hasn't even been published (in its final form, at least) and all this is reinforcing my belief in that BRP's worst enemies are its own fans (well, some of them... generalizing is always bad).

No. Chasoium has been BRP's own worst enemy. It is because there are still fans buying up and playing old product that the game hasn't sank into oblivion decades ago. It's been all the mistakes and missteps made since the Avalon Hill deal that have hurt all the BRP games more than the fans. Fans by product. No one else does.

Controversy and criticism doesn't mean squat as long as the books are selling. Look at MRQ. Quite a larger number of RQ and BRP fans hate MRQ, including a sizable percentage of the membership here, and the MRQ forums have been far most negative about MRQ than this place has ever gotten. As many of the members here know. Yet as long as Mongoose can sell MRQ product the criticism means squat.

I think a good deal of the conflict around BRP stems from it attempting to be the ultimate collection of BRP rules. No matter what what it went, it wasn't going to appeal to somebody.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Depends. Have they seen _any_ non-heavily-moderated RPG board? I honestly haven't seen anything on here worse than I've seen on the M&M boards, the Hero boards, the GURPS boards or RPG.net. People get invested in their favorite game systems; and invested people get worked up. And worked up people tend to vent on the Web more than they would in real life. I don't see much sign this is worse than most in that regard. I've gotten my fair share of attitude on here, but to be honest, its more civil than I've seen in many places.

Yeah the MRQ board got so hot that it was making RPG.net look tame, several threads got deleted, and some posters got banned multiple times, including a certain member of the Coleoptera order who is a key presence here.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

I think Jason is stressed for perfectly understandable reasons, and this was likely his first experience at being chief author on a new edition of an established game system with an established fan base; some of the mixed blessing present in the sale of Edition 0 has complicated this further. As such his reaction is understandable, but in the end, I don't think he got any more flack than is pretty typical under those circumstances; possibly less on the whole.

Yeah, I've seen authors pop up on several forums and it always goes about the same. There are some critics who will disagree with every direction the author takes, but then there are some sycophants who will even praise the typos as a sign of genius. The majority of the forum will be somewhere between the extremes, and get lost in the shuffle.

If people want to promote a more positive feeling, why not start some positive threads. How about a "I Love BRP" thread where those who have/love zero can speak up?




Rise up ye masses and be counted!