Comparative Systemology

[raymond_turney]

Hi,

My condolences Jason.

Authors are going to feel unappreciated and under-compensated. They are going to get a lot of criticism by fans who haven't dealt with putting out a game; misunderstand design objectives; ungratefully insist that the author should have written the game that is in their heads, assume that draft copies of the rules are final, etc.

In short, fans are human beings, and your human being leaves a lot to be desired.

On the other hand, in this load of {expletive deleted} some of the criticism will be useful. Like editing or code review, the process usually improves the product. Remember the George Bernard Shaw line:

"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world, the unreasonable man tries to adapt the world to himself. All progress is due to the unreasonable man."

So stay out for a while, but remember that today's passions will be replaced by those of tomorrow, unless you attain enlightenment.

Ray,

[SDLeary]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Depends. Have they seen _any_ non-heavily-moderated RPG board? I honestly haven't seen anything on here worse than I've seen on the M&M boards, the Hero boards, the GURPS boards or RPG.net. People get invested in their favorite game systems; and invested people get worked up. And worked up people tend to vent on the Web more than they would in real life. I don't see much sign this is worse than most in that regard. I've gotten my fair share of attitude on here, but to be honest, its more civil than I've seen in many places.

And its _immensely_ more civil than was the routine when I was on the USENET rpg groups.

Not the point. I agree its far more civil than USENET. In some ways far more civil than RPGnet. Mongoose... haven't hit that forum in forever because its almost all noise.

The point is that first impressions do matter. Especially when your about to risk your own savings, that of your buddy or your family, and perhaps what ever investors you have.

"Woo! I'm gonna build something for my favorite system, publish it, and make some money to boot. Dayum... look at the flame level in that forum. Man, and here too! I wonder if my effort will be appreciated. Probalby not, I won't make much if any money either. Perhaps I should write this for brand D. Not my favorite game, but they have a much larger audience, my efforts will be more appreciated, and I'll make more money."

Yes... I realize thats somewhat unrealistic, at least the money part. That is, however, the type of decision that could be made based upon the noise level in fora.

I'm not saying that we should censor ourselves; The points should still be made. But they need to be made in a more civil tone, less flame and noise.

I think Jason is stressed for perfectly understandable reasons, and this was likely his first experience at being chief author on a new edition of an established game system with an established fan base; some of the mixed blessing present in the sale of Edition 0 has complicated this further. As such his reaction is understandable, but in the end, I don't think he got any more flack than is pretty typical under those circumstances; possibly less on the whole.

I do too. And I credit that as a contributing factor in the way Jason has been delivering posts lately, and venting in the last one. But go back and read his post again. There were some points other than his personal displeasure that he was trying to deliver.

Im not sure that this is his first experience as point author. He has written and contributed quite a bit to various game. As for the sale of Edition Zero, it is a mixed blessing. But its one that we (the fans) pestered Chaosium for. If we hadn't pleaded with them, then Zero would not be in our hands. On the plus side though, its probably better proofed than almost any RPG in recent memory!

SDLeary

[Trifletraxor]

Originally Posted by SDLeary

"Woo! I'm gonna build something for my favorite system, publish it, and make some money to boot. Dayum... look at the flame level in that forum. Man, and here too! I wonder if my effort will be appreciated. Probalby not, I won't make much if any money either. Perhaps I should write this for brand D. Not my favorite game, but they have a much larger audience, my efforts will be more appreciated, and I'll make more money."

A game system will always have discussions about which game mechanics are the best to use. If you look at the planned supplements, and the threads covering them, you actually don't see a single critical post. (Well, I don't see one at least). The only flame I've seen on this forum was related to a sorcery and shaman discussion, which really had nothing to do with the new system at all.

I'm not saying that we should censor ourselves; The points should still be made. But they need to be made in a more civil tone, less flame and noise.

Well, that's rule #1 or #2 on this forum (I don't remember which): Self -moderate yourself. Still, while there is a lot of noice, I don't see much flame here.

If we hadn't pleaded with them, then Zero would not be in our hands. On the plus side though, its probably better proofed than almost any RPG in recent memory!

It is, and some of the discussions have erupted since BRP ZERO was so unfinished when sent out. People argueing about the range of firearms can't be much of a surprise when all the footnotes have disappeared. That Chaosium is even able to publish a "Zero Edition" says a lot about the passion for this game.

SGL.

[soltakss]

When BRP comes out, I will buy it.

When many of the supplements come out, I will buy them.

As with RQM and other versions of RQ, I will generally review BRP with a favourable eye, hoping to get other people to buy the product.

I will support BRP on my website, as I do with RQ at the moment.

I can't see how I can be more positive about BRP.

If saying that I'd have liked BRP to be more RQ-like is negative then I apologise about being negative.

If saying that I would like BRP to be less like Call of Cthulhu, a game I am on record as not liking, is negative then I apologise for being negative.

But I will not apologise for expressing my own views on a public forum.

I have criticised RQ in the past, am not a huge fan of RQM and will no doubt criticise BRP in the future if the supplements are not up to scratch. If I buy the products, surely I have the right to express my opinions about those products.

Granted, I have not bought BRP Zero both for financial reasons and because I am waiting for the complete version to come out, but I have seen the playtest version and have commented on that.

When BRP eventually comes out, expect to see glowing reviews.

[Shaira]

Blimey - I look away for a couple of days and look what happens! It's like the last scene in a Stormbringer scenario here - major wounds and body parts everywhere, walls covered in blood, widows and children sobbing in the corner, and some Unspeakable Slimy Mess bubbling on the floor over there that once must have been ... ugh... that's just not right...



Actually I tend to steer clear of threads on RPG boards which get passionately bogged down in opinion-based statistical minutiae. You know the sort - "hell, faster-than-light travel just can't work based on expanding the tunnelling phenomenon of electrons, this game just sucks..." "Does not!" "Does too!" Cue Wild Bill Hicks moment as Goat Boy comes cavorting on stage...

I'm on record as saying I've been very, very well pleased with BRP Zero, and am looking forwards to the first edition as it looks likely to be a superlative release. In the same way I tend to avoid negative discussions where people who haven't actually seen the rules start criticising them. Hey, it's your god-given right, but it's not too productive beyond the Grand Catharsis of a Good Rant (which I enjoy as much as the next carbon-based lifeform).

But it's always difficult in a project lifecycle when the customer base gets its hands on a product earlier than expected. We all cajoled Chaosium into releasing the Zero Ed, and on the whole I think it's been an excellent idea, though a damned rough ride for Jason. I used to work in financial services web-design, and the beta release of websites I created used to feel very similar - huge amounts of heat, and all you can say is "hey guys, thanks for the feedback - but do remember it's not finished yet!" and try and keep smiling. I must admit I never had to take heat from people who HADN'T seen the product, though. I can see that would be a whole different world of pain - definitely an itch you can't scratch.

But, well - a zero-release is just that. It's a proof copy. It's a very rare attempt for us, the customers, to give pre-release feedback. How we do that is pretty much a measure of etiquette - I didn't shell out my hard-earned readies expecting a finished product, so I'm viewing the chance to raise questions and ask for clarifications as an opportunity to ensure the final release is as bug-free and user-friendly as everything else we've come to expect from Chaosium. Of course we have a *right* to be as critical, harsh, condemnatory, or god-damn argumentative as we like, but this is a pre-release product and we're representing a community of BRP fans who surely have more of an interest in being constructive than destructive. Heck, some of us may even have written games ourselves.

Lastly - to everyone who has constructive ideas on how game systems can be tweaked and certain genres enhanced (I'm thinking of the gun guys, the sorcery guys, and the vehicle design systems guys), I'm sure you'll agree that the BRP rules provide a foundation to build on - playable, by all means, but in no way the last word. If you have the expertise to research, generate, playtest, and release a whole system of modern firearms and wounding rules which slot into the BRP system, then - hell, yeah, go for it! I'm sure some games would LOVE that stuff. Get ready to take flak for people saying you're wrong, though - there's always someone who disagrees!

Anyway - long meditative post over. I'd just like to join the voices thanking Jason for a sterling job, and wishing him all the very best with the tough family problems he's going through right now. Hang in there.

Drinks are on me down Gimpy's!

Sarah

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by soltakss

When BRP comes out, I will buy it.

When many of the supplements come out, I will buy them.

As with RQM and other versions of RQ, I will generally review BRP with a favourable eye, hoping to get other people to buy the product.

I will support BRP on my website, as I do with RQ at the moment.

I can't see how I can be more positive about BRP.

If saying that I'd have liked BRP to be more RQ-like is negative then I apologise about being negative.

If saying that I would like BRP to be less like Call of Cthulhu, a game I am on record as not liking, is negative then I apologise for being negative.

But I will not apologise for expressing my own views on a public forum.

I have criticised RQ in the past, am not a huge fan of RQM and will no doubt criticise BRP in the future if the supplements are not up to scratch. If I buy the products, surely I have the right to express my opinions about those products.

Granted, I have not bought BRP Zero both for financial reasons and because I am waiting for the complete version to come out, but I have seen the playtest version and have commented on that.

When BRP eventually comes out, expect to see glowing reviews.

Exactly the same for me.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Shaira

...
Anyway - long meditative post over. I'd just like to join the voices thanking Jason for a sterling job, and wishing him all the very best with the tough family problems he's going through right now. Hang in there.
...

On this one, I think we all agree.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[threedeesix]

Originally Posted by Joseph Paul

OK I am confused and not getting the reason for the big smiley. At the risk of spoilng the joke could you please explain it? Also are you related to SD, I noticed the 'Leary' on the end of both your names.

No joke to spoil. I just liked my comparison and thought I gave a good reason to choose the .45 over the .22. even if I misunderstood your actual comment.

And while I don't know SD personally, you never know.

Rod Leary

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by SDLeary

Not the point. I agree its far more civil than USENET. In some ways far more civil than RPGnet. Mongoose... haven't hit that forum in forever because its almost all noise.

The point is that first impressions do matter. Especially when your about to risk your own savings, that of your buddy or your family, and perhaps what ever investors you have.

My point is that people who respond negatively to webboards should probably not use webboards. Net culture is what it is, and if they're getting put off by what they see here, what reaction are they having to other places on the Web? I'm not going to assume that some potential writer/publisher for BRP suddenly dropped into this board after never using one before. And if they have, I'm going to have to assume they understand its business as usual. So I honestly think that someone who is likely to be scared off from doing product because of the tone of posts on here is, well, a little bit too brittle for the industry anyway, because I can guarentee that the first time they do something that doesn't suit some part of their market, they'll get bitching about it. Loud, hyperbolic bitching most likely. That's the gaming hobby in general and the Web in general, and the intersection of the two doesn't produce anything but what you'd expect if you're at all experienced with the pieces.

So I'm kind of afraid I either don't buy the premise, or to the degree I do think that its no great loss; people so put off from reading this board that they don't want to publish probably _are_ better off not getting into this industry, because sooner or later it'll only give them grief if they don't have a halfway thick skin.

"Woo! I'm gonna build something for my favorite system, publish it, and make some money to boot. Dayum... look at the flame level in that forum. Man, and here too! I wonder if my effort will be appreciated. Probalby not, I won't make much if any money either. Perhaps I should write this for brand D. Not my favorite game, but they have a much larger audience, my efforts will be more appreciated, and I'll make more money."

Hah. Their audience will give you _twice_ the trouble.

I'm not saying that we should censor ourselves; The points should still be made. But they need to be made in a more civil tone, less flame and noise.

This still assumes that the flame and noise level in here is high. I think I'm arguing that by any common standard for such things, its not.

Im not sure that this is his first experience as point author. He has written and contributed quite a bit to various game. As for the sale of Edition Zero, it

I could be incorrect, but there's usually a difference between being a contributing author and a main author. The latter have to catch a lot more commentary. And the author of a revision has a particularly hard time of it because he has to deal with established expectations.

is a mixed blessing. But its one that we (the fans) pestered Chaosium for. If we hadn't pleaded with them, then Zero would not be in our hands. On the plus side though, its probably better proofed than almost any RPG in recent memory!

SDLeary

I understand why they did it; I understand why people wanted it; but I think the take home from Jason's comments is that it did turn some of the negativity up because people are essentially responding to an unedited draft in some ways as though it was a final product, and that's got to have added to his stress level pretty good.

[Joseph Paul]

Originally Posted by threedeesix

No joke to spoil. I just liked my comparison and thought I gave a good reason to choose the .45 over the .22. even if I misunderstood your actual comment.

And while I don't know SD personally, you never know.

Rod Leary

Oh! I get the the reasons you listed, thank you for them.