Comparative Systemology

[Trifletraxor]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

So I'm kind of afraid I either don't buy the premise, or to the degree I do think that its no great loss; people so put off from reading this board that they don't want to publish probably _are_ better off not getting into this industry, because sooner or later it'll only give them grief if they don't have a halfway thick skin.

Yup. There will always be some critic. You can't get it all right, and you can't please everybody. Still, I don't believe the product have been given a tough reception here either. Have a look at the MRQ boards, rude people saying their dog could have regurgitated better stuff and constant complaining about broken rules. What have we got here? Some disagreement about weapon tables, hit locations and vehicle rules?

I understand why they did it; I understand why people wanted it; but I think the take home from Jason's comments is that it did turn some of the negativity up because people are essentially responding to an unedited draft in some ways as though it was a final product, and that's got to have added to his stress level pretty good.

Lost footnotes created a lot of misunderstandings, no doubt about that.

SGL.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Trifletraxor

Yup. There will always be some critic. You can't get it all right, and you can't please everybody. Still, I don't believe the product have been given a tough reception here either. Have a look at the MRQ boards, rude people saying their dog could have regurgitated better stuff and constant complaining about broken rules. What have we got here? Some disagreement about weapon tables, hit locations and vehicle rules?

That was kind of my take on it; the roughest exchange I've seen on the whole board was the back and forth between me and Atxgtx a while back on the typical game and what's needed in it, and that was about typical for even slightly heated exchanges in most game boards I've ever seen. Its the idea this has been a rough board that's kind of boggling to me, and the idea that as such its likely to discourage people. Dear gods, if they think this is a rough board, their heads would explode if they ever visited therpgsite.com.

I'm not saying that everyone couldn't potentially be a little nicer sometimes, but to hold up the average reaction on here as excessive or particularly rude just seems to only make sense in the context of people who are new to the Web.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

That was kind of my take on it; the roughest exchange I've seen on the whole board was the back and forth between me and Atxgtx a while back on the typical game and what's needed in it, and that was about typical for even slightly heated exchanges in most game boards I've ever seen. Its the idea this has been a rough board that's kind of boggling to me, and the idea that as such its likely to discourage people. Dear gods, if they think this is a rough board, their heads would explode if they ever visited therpgsite.com.

I'm not saying that everyone couldn't potentially be a little nicer sometimes, but to hold up the average reaction on here as excessive or particularly rude just seems to only make sense in the context of people who are new to the Web.

Actually, I agree with Triff in that the Sorcery wars threadjack got a lot more heated that our sparring. Out conflict ended up with our finding a sort of common ground.

And, typically, the worse/rudest posts were not from the critics but reactionary counter attacks from the faithful. Not from Jason, mind you, but from supporters who leaped in to ridicule people for daring to question something in the first place.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Actually, I agree with Triff in that the Sorcery wars threadjack got a lot more heated that our sparring. Out conflict ended up with our finding a sort of common ground.

Fair enough. But even that was hardly exceptional as gameboard arguments go.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Fair enough. But even that was hardly exceptional as gameboard arguments go.

Nah, pretty tame. THe MRQ forums were a lot worse. It got so bad they the guys I was arguing in had to step in and defend me when some fanboys just started making personal attacks.

By comparison this place is fairly tame and civil. Plus I think most of us have benefited by many of these discussions.

The alternative is for everyone to keep their mouth shut, praise the powers that be, never voice an opinion, and drink the poisoned Kool-Aide when it comes around.

[Sunwolfe]

...that it also has something to do with forum experience, how much a body posts, where one happens to be emotionally at the moment and what our expectations are in coming here.

I know in my case, I'm used to posting and lurking on Bob Dunsire's Bagpipe Web forums with 11,453 registered members and 1000s of posts each week. Those boards are seriously organized and controlled. There are a couple of dozen "rooms" catering to various Great Highland bagpipe subjects. Each room has one or more very “present” moderators. Posters getting off-topic, which happens, are quickly and decisively returned to the subject at hand and encouraged to start a new thread in an appropriate room. Those who want to talk about subjects other than bagpipe-focused, there's a room called "The Beer Tent" where the fur, and occasionally an empty bottle of Scotch, flies. Personal attacks, political diatribes, racial slurs, gender bias and religious intolerance are dealt with swiftly and decisively with a ban. Some people bristle when they hear about this kind of forum, feeling that their right to express themselves will be curtailed unjustly or that it must be impossible to argue or debate. Nothing could be further from the truth. For those who don't know, pipers are some of the most opinionated and stubborn folk that planet Earth has ever known. Sure, you have to think about what you're gonna say and how to say it, but with all parties acknowledging and agreeing to operate under the clearly established parameters, the discussions are passionate and articulate, the subjects wide ranging and interesting. The up shot of such behavior is a lot of constructive criticism is given as well as insightful advice, alternate views acknowledged and new perspectives uncovered.

Now before you write my example off as inconsequential, (auk, we're no silly pipers, laddie, we're Rrrrrpgerrz!), I don't bring this place up as a suggestion, though I think when it comes to posting off-topic (something I'm guilty of), there's something useful here. I'm only using it as an example of how our collective forum experience is as vastly different as is our reaction to it.

The noise level can be intimidating too and a reason, I have to admit--much to my shame--, I post so seldom. I feel like the chances of saying something "wrong" is very high and that such gaffs won't be treated with tolerance or good grace, rather with, at best light condescension, at the worst flat out derision. I know, I know, I know, that wouldn’t be the case here...er...right? h well: but I mean, wow, the level of detail argued on some of these threads is amazing and intimidating. A body doesn’t want to drop in a word in edge-wise. I feel safer stepping between my brother's Rot and her food dish. Personally, between you, me and the duck, I worry for the health of some of these folk...

And of course, if I'm having a bad day, been dumped on by the boss, don't have a date for the prom or feeling like I'm takin' more than what I consider to be my fair share of the flak, I'd be a liar if I claim it's not going to influence whether or not or how or what I post.

The whys and wherefores of posting etiquette are pretty complex, unspoken and unwritten mysteries. It's easy to get lost and feel frustrated (I got to learn to type faster; when I started writing, the thread was about artist names for by TMNT npc’s and now it's about whether or not the Chaosium dragon is male, female or other. What the hell?).

Expectation plays a part as well. I think there's something unique to be had here at BRP Central—something forming out-of-the-norm: players who are emotionally invested, predominantly older (for now), very experienced, some articulate and prolific, sharing ideas, inspiring each other, talking with the author of the next phase, beginning to think and consider how influential they can be on the future of the next incarnation, revising, reconsidering and reevaluating their perspectives and long cherished hopes. I think we're on the cusp of something new and cool evolving into something newer and cooler, played and influenced by dudes and dudettes who are old and cool based on something older and cooler...what?...yeah! Or...maybe not...sigh. I wonder if that's why it can be so frustrating. The potential is almost palpable...but...at...times...seems...just...out.. .of...reach just ready to slip off the edge.

Anyway...I think it's cool when we consider that everyone's ideas about a forum are different and we make allowances for 'em. To do so may require a little adjustment here and there or giving up a degree or two of what some consider to be their god-given right of expression (note I did NOT say opinion), but I wonder if the rewards wouldn't be worth it.

Cheers,
Sunwolfe

[Nightshade]

Sunwolf:

You'll note early on I qualified my statement in regard to non-moderated boards. There tends to be some fairly big separations between unmoderated, lightly moderated, medium moderated and heavy moderated boards (and no, these aren't precise terms, but they're broad enough to be somewhat useful; this is a lightly moderated board by my standards, for example). The majority of gaming BBSes are lightly to moderately moderated; very few are heavily moderated (such as the bagpiping board you're refering to) and a few are effectively unmoderated. As such, people coming from a heavily moderated environment are going to find most gaming boards a bit rough at best.

[RMS]

Originally Posted by Sunwolfe

I know in my case, I'm used to posting and lurking on Bob Dunsire's Bagpipe Web forums with 11,453 registered members and 1000s of posts each week.

I come from a background of hanging out in guitar groups and compared to almost any of those forums every RPG forum I've been on has been very mild: including the old usenet groups. Things refered to as "flames" around here are almost completely below the radar for me. I don't know if this is so much moderating level as just the general culture around the hobbie, and in fact I find myself inherently dealing with the two groups completely differently.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by RMS

I come from a background of hanging out in guitar groups and compared to almost any of those forums every RPG forum I've been on has been very mild: including the old usenet groups. Things refered to as "flames" around here are almost completely below the radar for me. I don't know if this is so much moderating level as just the general culture around the hobbie, and in fact I find myself inherently dealing with the two groups completely differently.

That makes you the second person to say that about guitar groups. Now with the comment about bagpipe forums I'm going to steer clear of musicians.

Fortunately I don't know any, just a drummer.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Fortunately I don't know any...

Yes you do you Idiot. It is apparent to everyone else on these boards your logic behind that statement is completely inane, and I don't even know why I am lowering myself to your level by even discussing this with you loser.