Comparative Systemology

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

soltakss has some good points here. I also think that BRP has moved away from RQ. Not really surprise though, since that is what was being advertised. Any confusion over this can probably be the blame of Chaosium because of the BRP Monograph.

As a RQ fan, the more I've found out about BRP the less I think I'm going to like it. I like RQ, with all it's complexity, and never cared for the watered down versions such as CoC and Elric! that seem to be popular with several people here.

I don't consider BRP to be RQ anymore than I consider CoC to be RQ. RQ derived, yeah, but not RQ. MRQ, however, claims to be RQ, instead of a derivative. Claims were made as to the involvement of Greg Stafford and Steve Perrin in the development that were false. BRP makes no such claims.

Jason and Chaosium have been quite upfront about the new BRP not being RQ. Mongoose were not. The basically used the RQ name and word of Stafford's and Perrin's involvement to con a bunch of RQ fans into buying the game. I have little doubt that most of the first printings were preordered by RQ fans. I suspect that there is enough evidence to win a fraud case against Mongoose. Not there is enough money involved to make it practical (a class action suit for a few thousand people at $25 a head isn't worth the trouble).

So neither is RQ, but at least the folks behind BRP are honest about it.

Completely agree here. And I think the work is well done, but it is not what I would like to have.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by The Venomous Pao

Anyone who is scared off of the final version before there is a final version just because of the typos and errors found in such an advance text probably should stay away from sausage factories. You do not want to see how the stuff is made.

Ever read The Jungle by Upton Sinclair?

I won't eat hot dogs. I hope Jason doesn't put as much himself or rat feces into BRP as is used in sausage factories.

That said. I don't consider 'zero" to be anything other than a work in progress, and won't hold it's errors against BRP when it comes out.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Also, judging the game based on an early sample character sheet seems right up there with judging a book by its cover to me.

You can tell a lot about a RPG by looking at a character sheet. Much more than by looking at the cover. But it is like judging the book after reading one page.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

All this angst over things being made optional confuses me. It's not really the same as taking the sacred cow out back, shooting it in the head and turning it into hamburger. It's just streamlining things a bit for the newbies (yes, like me) but leaving the option for the crunchier stuff for those who want it. Take strike ranks. I don't like 'em. I'll never use 'em. They're too crunchy for my tastes. Now, I could get mad that they're in the book taking up space that could've been used to flesh out the powers systems (which I do like). But hey, why stress? Let's let everyone have their options.

I think the angst comes in over the supplments. As some others have pointed out, it is a lot more work to write up SR, hit location, and piecemeal armor data for all the characters in a supplment then it is to ignore the stuff you don't want to use. Enough work to cut down on any appeal that using a predesigned adventure has.

IMO I think they should either cover the options in supplments or work up some sort of genre conventions with certain sets of options that work together. For instance, putting most of the RQ options together for a "gritty fantasy" setting, or the CoC ones together for CoC stuff and so forth.

Of course that does bring up another question that is yet to be asked. Just what does BRP mean for CoC? Will they be two separate systems. Will CoC be "folded" into BRP? We we see stuff written for both COC and BRP?

Originally Posted by The Venomous Pao

Like I said, I'm glad this isn't just a redo of RQ. I was never into RQ. It's a fine game in its own right, but I happen to like BRP better. So I'm glad to see it get a new lease on life. I can't help but wonder if that, in the end, isn't what all this is about. BRP gets resurrected but RQ proper doesn't (MRQ notwithstanding) and that upsets people. Then again, I might just be reading too deeply into things.

Well BRP can't really be resurrected because it never existed. There was RQ, Stormbringer, CoC, and WoW. Each of the old games was different from the others. All of them were based off on RQ to some extent, until RQ3, when Chaosium started using CoC for a design base. BRP as a basis for other games is really a fiction. WoW was really about the only thing based on BRP.

By that reasoning it makes sense that WoW was used as a source for a new BRP RPG.

[Trifletraxor]

Originally Posted by frogspawner

HP = SIZ*/2, roll location (if rqd), 0hp or below disables location, -5 is Serious wound**, -10 is Critical wound**, -CON is dead.

Would you care to elaborate? I didn't really get it the first time around.

SGL.

[PK Games]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

I got to know. Where did that come from?

I always view advertising slogans to be big bold face lies. So I figured Id create one that was just plain ridiculous for my B61

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

...
That said. I don't consider 'zero" to be anything other than a work in progress, and won't hold it's errors against BRP when it comes out.
...
I think the angst comes in over the supplments. As some others have pointed out, it is a lot more work to write up SR, hit location, and piecemeal armor data for all the characters in a supplment then it is to ignore the stuff you don't want to use. Enough work to cut down on any appeal that using a predesigned adventure has.
...

Idem for 1st part.
For 2nd part, this is exactly what I had in mind. It is easier to ignore what you don't want than to add what you want and is missing. Apart the fact that I would have liked to get something more Runequesty, my main point is that I would have prefered the opposite way, ie the most comprehensive default, with optional simplifications.


Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[CruelDespot]

I am not a fan of RQ3. I'm a former Elric! player. I think Elric! was the pinnacle of RPG perfection. I am also a big fan of CoC. So when I read that the primary source for the new BRP is Elric, followed by CoC, it made me happy.

I understand why Runequest 3 fans would be frustrated, but you can't please everyone.

Jason "I am designing a new motorcycle"
RQ3 fans "But I want a pickup truck."
Jason "OK, but other people want a new motorcycle, so that's what I am making."
Later...
Jason : "How do you like my new motorcycle?"
RQ3 fans: "What? It doesn't have a cargo bed? How am I going to use this as a pickup truck?"
Jason: "How do you like it as a motorcycle?"
RQ3 fans: "Could you add 3 seats, a payload capacity of 2 tons, four wheel drive..."

Well I want a motorcycle. The pickup druck division is over at Mongoose publishing. If you don't like their new pickup truck product, don't blame the motorcycle division.

[Triff]

Originally Posted by Kloster

Idem for 1st part.
For 2nd part, this is exactly what I had in mind. It is easier to ignore what you don't want than to add what you want and is missing. Apart the fact that I would have liked to get something more Runequesty, my main point is that I would have prefered the opposite way, ie the most comprehensive default, with optional simplifications.


Runequestement votre,

Kloster

I agree. That would be the preferred way to handle the supplements at least.

SGL.

[Shaira]

Originally Posted by Triff

I agree. That would be the preferred way to handle the supplements at least.

SGL.

I think it probably depends on the genre, but in generally I agree it's also probably the only way to go. I'm putting some stuff together for a fantasy setting at the mo which may one day see the light of day, and am deliberately factoring in a whole heap of optional BRP rules (Strike Ranks, Fatigue, Hit Locations, etc) into the critter stats at both scenario and sourcebook level, whether or not I personally would use them. That way you'll have some redundancy - a critter would have both Major Wound and Hit Location stats, for example, and you pick and choose based on the game you want.

I agree it would be a pain to have to try and derive hit location stats from a beastie that's only provided with Major Wound data.

Incidentally, the only place where this becomes a bit of a hiccough is the magic system. This maybe where GMs have to use some discretion - if your campaign only uses Sorcery, say, and a generic adventure you buy has Magic stats, you'll have to do some natty switching over. Alternately, settings sourcebooks will probably end up stating their conventions explicitly (ie "this sourcebook assumes both Magic and Sorcery are used", etc).

One last point regarding the "BRP-is-not-RQ" debate - Atgxtg, Kloster, have you seen the BRP Zero rules, yet? Just wondering - reading the rules, I can't actually see what the problem is! From my POV the rules as written are very flexible, and plenty complex enough if you want them to be to stand up to a RQ comparison. The only place they don't compare is the Powers chapter - that's the only bit you'd have to modify to do a RQ game with the BRP rules. IE, BRP Zero + RQ3 Magic book = an updated version of the old RQ rules. Certainly a base rules set which could handle a "Magic and Heroquesting" supplement somewhere down the line. So far, as an old RQ grognard, I absolutely love what I'm seeing with the new BRP - and hope it gets the setting, sourcebook, and scenario support which it deserves!

Cheers,

Sarah

[soltakss]

Originally Posted by Kloster

Congratulations soltakss, you were faster on creating this topic.

My wife was on a nicotine-withdrawal-rant so I made myself scarce for a couple of hours.

I didn't mention that having a lot of Optional Rules made supplements difficult to write as you can't always tell which rules to include and which to ignore.

I do agree with you that it will be difficult.

What we'll probably get is CoC supplements using some optional rules and fantasy supplements using others. So, we should get the same optional rules used for similar supplements.

[soltakss]

Originally Posted by Rurik

The sad thing however for many old RQ fans is that:

Originally Posted by Rurik

1) No new supplements for BRP will work with RQ3 without a fair amount of work for the GM (assuming SR and Hit Locations will probably not be used for stats in most supplements as they are optional)

Well, I think that you could run a scenario fairly easily with RQ3. The only real problem would be no Hit Locations DEX Ranks not Strike Ranks, Variable Armour and possibly the Magic System. Hopefully Chaosium will release the RQ3 Magic System as a BRP supplement, or perhaps a variant of the RQ3 Magic System.

But, if you are used to running things on the fly, as I am, it's not really a problem. It's only a big problem if you convert every NPC to RQ3 before playing and I don#t bother doing that.

Originally Posted by Rurik

2) No new Glorantha supplements will work with RQ3 without even more work for the GM.

Well, Third Age Glorantha is HeroQuest, Second Age Glorantha is RQM and both wil need some work. BRP probably won't have Gloranthan supplements so it has no effect.

Originally Posted by Rurik

Three years ago if you told me all the tidbits about the release of BRP, The release of MRQ, and all the Release of Second Age Glorantha for RQ, I would envisioned a utopia of RQ goodness. The reality of this brave new (RQ) world has not lived up to the promise. We have RQ, BRP, and Glorantha, but somehow we have three pieces that don't all fit together or work together nicely.

Well, yes. But I have high hopes of Third Party Publishers producing supplements that are semi-compatible with BRP/RQM/RQ3 and can be used in many different settings.

Originally Posted by Rurik

Not that any of this is your fault, or Chaosiums. But I share in the pain of RQ grognards like Triff and company.

We can't really blame Chaosium for producing BRP that is different to RQM or Mongoose for producing RQM that is different to RQ3 or indeed anyone.

GORE has shown that something using the RQM SRD can be made to be similar to older versions of RQ and that's the way forward in my opinion.