Comparative Systemology

[soltakss]

Originally Posted by Shaira

One last point regarding the "BRP-is-not-RQ" debate - Atgxtg, Kloster, have you seen the BRP Zero rules, yet?

The original question asked about my personal opinion on the playtest version. I haven't seen BRP Zero as stated before.

I'm not saying that BRP should be just like RQ.

What I'm saying is that I am a big, big fan of RQ and I would have liked BRP to be a continuation of its RQ heritage. It has a RQ heritage, despite what people want to think. I've never liked Call of Cthulhu, played some Elric, liked Hawkmoon and Ringworld but I've never been a fan of the other BRP systems. I saw them as cut-down versions of RQ.

So, I was half-expecting BRP to be an extension of the RQ3-style Monograph, as Chaosium's Roleplaying System. It isn't and I am disappointed with that.

I'm not saying that BRP is a bad system, it definitely isn't that. It's just different to what I had hoped.

I had a pickup truck and they promised me something better. What I got was a motorcycle with optional bulldozer attachment, sidecar and cargo trailer. I still want a pickup truck with a new paint job and better lights, handling, suspension, satnav, TV and en-suite shower and toilet.

Is that too much to ask?

[Rurik]

I'm not faulting BRP for being what it is, just for not being what I want.

Seriously, it is not Jason or Chaosiums fault that Greg Secured the RQ trademark faster than they did when it expired (well ok, maybe that is Chaosium's fault), and then licensed it to MGP.

Seriously (no seriously this time). BRP looks like it will be exactly what it set out to be, and that is exactly what a lot of people are looking for (a generic Elric! implementation, Superpowers, Sci-Fi). I'm getting it for sure, and will use it (to what extent I don't know yet).

But it is not what the RQ Grognards really want, and it is not a slight to Jason or Chaosium to say so, it is a fact. And it was our last hope (Help us Obi-Wan Durall, you are our last hope), when MRQ, SA Glorantha, and DBRP were all in the works how could we help but envision a gaming utopia on the horizon? It has not materialised the way we envisioned - what we have is a bunch of seperate pieces that we have to work hard to fit together. Nope, Pendragon and the GPC it has not been.

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by CruelDespot

I am not a fan of RQ3. I'm a former Elric! player. I think Elric! was the pinnacle of RPG perfection. I am also a big fan of CoC. So when I read that the primary source for the new BRP is Elric, followed by CoC, it made me happy.

I understand why Runequest 3 fans would be frustrated, but you can't please everyone.

Jason "I am designing a new motorcycle"
RQ3 fans "But I want a pickup truck."
Jason "OK, but other people want a new motorcycle, so that's what I am making."
Later...
Jason : "How do you like my new motorcycle?"
RQ3 fans: "What? It doesn't have a cargo bed? How am I going to use this as a pickup truck?"
Jason: "How do you like it as a motorcycle?"
RQ3 fans: "Could you add 3 seats, a payload capacity of 2 tons, four wheel drive..."

Well I want a motorcycle. The pickup druck division is over at Mongoose publishing. If you don't like their new pickup truck product, don't blame the motorcycle division.

I'm not blaming the motorcycle division. I've even said I find Jason did a nice job. I knew BRP was not envisionned to become RQ from the beginning. What I say is:
1 - I would have prefered RQ (which is, for me, the pinnacle of BRP), but this is a personnal taste, and I'm not complaining on that, because I'm not frustrated. I just have what has been promised.
2 - The fact that Jason choose SB5 and CoC as main sources bring a simpler, less detailed game as default, with lots of optional rules to add complexity. As I have already explained, this will bring more work to use the supplements if they focus (which they should) on the core rules. I find simpler to remove what I don't use than add everything I want and is not present.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Shaira

I think it probably depends on the genre, but in generally I agree it's also probably the only way to go. I'm putting some stuff together for a fantasy setting at the mo which may one day see the light of day, and am deliberately factoring in a whole heap of optional BRP rules (Strike Ranks, Fatigue, Hit Locations, etc) into the critter stats at both scenario and sourcebook level, whether or not I personally would use them. That way you'll have some redundancy - a critter would have both Major Wound and Hit Location stats, for example, and you pick and choose based on the game you want.
...

This is what I would like to have, but I'm afraid to miss. If the supplements are presented that way, most of the griefs I do have are gone.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Shaira]

Gosh, guys, I must say I'm quite surprised at the negativity shown on this thread, especially - and with all due respect - in many cases from people who haven't actually seen the rules yet! In fact, I'm picking up such negative vibes I'm even reluctant to post, cos a lot of this just feels like a moan that BRP isn't the new edition of RQ. I'm reading things like:

[FROM RURIK]
"No new supplements for BRP will work with RQ3 without a fair amount of work for the GM (assuming SR and Hit Locations will probably not be used for stats in most supplements as they are optional)"

Well, first, as you say, you're "assuming" that SR and Hit Locations will *probably* not be used. In other words, you don't actually know, but you've got yourself upset and disappointed cos you think maybe they won't. Why not wait for some actual real world supplements and see, first, rather than making your mind up before the facts?

And, second, why on earth should BRP work with RQ3 without some work for the GM? They're different games. Of course you can play in Glorantha using the BRP rules. And, if you want to play RQ3, you of course can do that, too. And, yes, BRP is not RQ3, so you can't play RQ3 with it. This method of argument does seem a bit circular.

I do actually wonder what you were expecting, guys - presumably a new Gloranthan RPG based on RQ? If so, I don't really think that was ever on the cards - or if it was, that's MRQ, and there you take your chances and make your choices.

I'm just about finished on my first read-through of the BRP Zero rules, and I'm extremely happy - nay, delighted - with what I see - and I'm a RQ grognard, Rurik, so there! What else were you looking for?

Of course what happens next is largely up to Chaosium and their approach to sourcebooks & licensing, but that's a business call.

I must admit to being puzzled as to how this could have ever been anything different. I can appreciate that a lot of people who dearly wanted a new edition of RQ were very disappointed with MRQ (as indeed was I - desperately so), but Chaosium never advertised they were publishing a new RQ, whilst Mongoose did, so the negative spin about BRP here does seem very, very unfair - especially since the BRP Zero is a damn fine job!

The Chaosium House system is back in print, guys, and by all accounts new support material in numerous settings will be next - what's not to like?

Cheers,

Sarah

ps - Kloster, you mentioned earlier in this thread that you thought variable armour was standard - it's not. Which is nice.

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Shaira

...
I agree it would be a pain to have to try and derive hit location stats from a beastie that's only provided with Major Wound data.
...

This is a perfect exemple.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Shaira]

Originally Posted by Kloster

This is what I would like to have, but I'm afraid to miss. If the supplements are presented that way, most of the griefs I do have are gone.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

Cool! I think pushing for this approach would be best. To be honest, it would seem to me to be the most sensible way to run things, too - less work for the GM up-front. And as Simon says, we'll probably get some genre-specific consensus developing over time as to which optional rules get used. Hopefully things like Bestiaries, and so on, will do something like that. (Anyone out there fancy writing up a Bestiary? )

Cheers,

Sarah

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Shaira

...
One last point regarding the "BRP-is-not-RQ" debate - Atgxtg, Kloster, have you seen the BRP Zero rules, yet?
...

I've stated I will not buy edition 0 for economical reasons (too high sending cost). I'm saving my money for the day the final version will be released. But all the points I have cited have been explicitly cited by Jason.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Shaira

...
The only place they don't compare is the Powers chapter - that's the only bit you'd have to modify to do a RQ game with the BRP rules. IE, BRP Zero + RQ3 Magic book = an updated version of the old RQ rules. Certainly a base rules set which could handle a "Magic and Heroquesting" supplement somewhere down the line.
...

This is what I plan to do once final version is released.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Shaira]

Originally Posted by Kloster

This is what I plan to do once final version is released.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

You can chalk me up for a copy of that!