Comparative Systemology

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by soltakss

...
I had a pickup truck and they promised me something better. What I got was a motorcycle with optional bulldozer attachment, sidecar and cargo trailer. I still want a pickup truck with a new paint job and better lights, handling, suspension, satnav, TV and en-suite shower and toilet.
...

That's true, you've played Car Wars!!!

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Rurik

I'm not faulting BRP for being what it is, just for not being what I want.

Seriously, it is not Jason or Chaosiums fault that Greg Secured the RQ trademark faster than they did when it expired (well ok, maybe that is Chaosium's fault), and then licensed it to MGP.

Seriously (no seriously this time). BRP looks like it will be exactly what it set out to be, and that is exactly what a lot of people are looking for (a generic Elric! implementation, Superpowers, Sci-Fi). I'm getting it for sure, and will use it (to what extent I don't know yet).

But it is not what the RQ Grognards really want, and it is not a slight to Jason or Chaosium to say so, it is a fact. And it was our last hope (Help us Obi-Wan Durall, you are our last hope), when MRQ, SA Glorantha, and DBRP were all in the works how could we help but envision a gaming utopia on the horizon? It has not materialised the way we envisioned - what we have is a bunch of seperate pieces that we have to work hard to fit together. Nope, Pendragon and the GPC it has not been.

Agreed here.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Shaira

...
ps - Kloster, you mentioned earlier in this thread that you thought variable armour was standard - it's not. Which is nice.

My mistake. I stand corrected.

Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[Rurik]

I've always pointed out that I don't blame Jason or Chaosium for what BRP is. They have delivered exactly what they wanted and promised, in what hopefully will be coherant project. I think people are taking us RQ grognards bitching about nobody really delivering what we want as criticism of what BRP is. The two are not the same thing.

We have to bitch places like here and the MRQ forums because, well, we have no home.

I will be shocked, but very happy, if most supplements that come out include Hit Locations and SR's, and will happily eat crow.

I've thought about how to stat up creatures to be universal based on bits' from this board - I know RQ and Elric! and CoC etc. etc. well enough to plan this out, and it is not easy to come up with one generic stat block - nor do I think it is a good idea, as one block with multiple mutually exclusive optional rules in it would be very confusing to a new comer - so multiple stat sets for npc's and monsters is the only way I can see to do this cleanly. Even multiple stat sets is not perfect though, as it sounds as if there are a lot of modular optional rules, and covering all the possible iterations will be difficult.

That is why I suspect most supplements will include stat's for the base core rules only. I hope I'm wrong.

[Rurik]

Hey, wait a minute, why I am I on the defensive about comparing RQ to BRP in a thread titled 'Comparative Systemology' that was created specifically for this purpose?

BRP suXX- RQ RAWKz!

(did I get my l33t speak right?)

[Jason Durall]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

I think the angst comes in over the supplments. As some others have pointed out, it is a lot more work to write up SR, hit location, and piecemeal armor data for all the characters in a supplment then it is to ignore the stuff you don't want to use. Enough work to cut down on any appeal that using a predesigned adventure has.

Two things I should clarify:

a) I am not a line editor at Chaosium, and at no point have I stated "this is the way it's gonna be" as regards to supplements. I spoke only about what I felt would work better, and what I plan on doing for my own Interplanetary book. If Charlie comes back and says "Hey, we really need to add all of the options into your manuscript" I will do so.

b) It's probably about the same amount of work to add optional stuff as to subtract it, and trying to go both direction makes for an extremely overcomplex NPC writeup. Some options aren't exactly compatible with one another, as well.

Imagine, if you will, an NPC stat block containing all of the optional stuff, perhaps in parentheses to distinguish the stuff. I'll walk you through a combo of the options...

• Hit Points Per Location in addition to general HP... not much conflict there
• Fatigue Points and Sanity... easy enough to add... this seems easy!
• Armor per Hit Location is easy enough to add, but what if the GM wants random armor?
• Heroic Hit Points doubles HP, and causes a double value if you want to have normal HP also represented
• Splitting Attack and Parry Skills... hmm... now each melee weapon skill has two values - what if I only want to use one? Do I average them, or just use attack?
• Skill Category Modifiers - should they be presented and not added, or should they be included and GMs not wishing to use them must subtract the values from existing skills?
• Simpler Skill Bonuses - hmm... these don't really mesh with the above easily, do they?
• Increased Personal Skill Points, Cultural Modifiers, EDU/Knowledge rolls, etc. - do I add these for GMs who want to use them, and make GMs who don't want to use them remove them, or do I put them in a block alongside each NPC writeup?
• Skill Ratings Over 100% - hoo-boy! Do I want to play Elric! style, with NPCs with attack skills of 300% or more, do I want to keep things simple and say that 100% is the top? Does each skill have two ratings, based on where you want to put the limit? Over 100% and under 100%?

And I could go on...

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Of course that does bring up another question that is yet to be asked. Just what does BRP mean for CoC? Will they be two separate systems. Will CoC be "folded" into BRP? We we see stuff written for both COC and BRP?

I have no idea what BRP means for CoC. I'm assuming that Charlie and Lynn have an idea, but I'm sure they're smart enough to see how BRP does before making any decisions.

[The Tweaker]

Originally Posted by Shaira

Gosh, guys, I must say I'm quite surprised at the negativity shown on this thread, especially - and with all due respect - in many cases from people who haven't actually seen the rules yet! In fact, I'm picking up such negative vibes I'm even reluctant to post, cos a lot of this just feels like a moan that BRP isn't the new edition of RQ.

I am sorry to say that this is how I feel sometimes when reading the posts in this and other threads. Not to offend anyone, but sometimes it looks like the worst enemies of the new BRP are precisely the older fans of the system. I for one am glad Sarah is here to balance things up! Thanks!

Originally Posted by Shaira

I'm just about finished on my first read-through of the BRP Zero rules, and I'm extremely happy - nay, delighted - with what I see - and I'm a RQ grognard, Rurik, so there! What else were you looking for?

(...)

The Chaosium House system is back in print, guys, and by all accounts new support material in numerous settings will be next - what's not to like?

That's exactly my view of things. I have very little experience with BRP (mostly CoC, which was the first rpg I played/GM'd, a loooong time ago). I never had any interest in Glorantha at all because my interests lay in the sci-fi/horror field, and neither RQ nor Elric!/Stormbringer caught my attention but, recognizing it was an excellent system, I would have loved to have a complete, settingless version of the rules - just like the one which is going to be released any day now. There was none at the time, so I turned to GURPS.

Thus, you could say I am relatively new to the system and I am very excited about the new BRP, not only because it looks like it will be just the book I would have loved to own all those years ago, but also because I am pretty sure by now that it will be an excellent work, perfectly able to stand on its own and attract new fans to the system. And Sarah's opinion is just further proof of that.

I understand it might not be what older fans were waiting for... and I am sorry for you, but for a newcomer like me, it is exactly what I am looking for.

[Trifletraxor]

Originally Posted by Jason Durall

Imagine, if you will, an NPC stat block containing all of the optional stuff, perhaps in parentheses to distinguish the stuff. I'll walk you through a combo of the options...

• Hit Points Per Location in addition to general HP... not much conflict there
• Armor per Hit Location is easy enough to add, but what if the GM wants random armor?

AP & HP per location, pluss SR, is the most important part here. If they're added, it would go a long way of helping anyone who want to run combat RQ3 style. Random armor is rarely wanted with hit locations, but if someone does, the fixed AP number will have a variable equivalent that can easily be remembered by the GM, so no need to add that.

• Fatigue Points and Sanity... easy enough to add... this seems easy!
• Heroic Hit Points doubles HP, and causes a double value if you want to have normal HP also represented
• Splitting Attack and Parry Skills... hmm... now each melee weapon skill has two values - what if I only want to use one? Do I average them, or just use attack?
• Skill Category Modifiers - should they be presented and not added, or should they be included and GMs not wishing to use them must subtract the values from existing skills?
• Simpler Skill Bonuses - hmm... these don't really mesh with the above easily, do they?
• Increased Personal Skill Points, Cultural Modifiers, EDU/Knowledge rolls, etc. - do I add these for GMs who want to use them, and make GMs who don't want to use them remove them, or do I put them in a block alongside each NPC writeup?

All the stuff you've mentioned here is not at all neccessay for NPCs. This variable rules are added in the players character generation, no need to pay attention to cultural modifiers for NPCs f.ex.

• Skill Ratings Over 100% - hoo-boy! Do I want to play Elric! style, with NPCs with attack skills of 300% or more, do I want to keep things simple and say that 100% is the top? Does each skill have two ratings, based on where you want to put the limit? Over 100% and under 100%?

That should be setting dependent.

And I could go on...

Yup, but the only really important ones are location HP & AP, and SR. Well, actually HP and SR is the only important ones, you could assume the same armor on all locations (which have been common for NPCs by the way).

For me personally it will not matter, as I will just tweak the major wound rules to my liking, and add the hit location dice to determine where you hit. But for those who want to use hit locations and SR, adding those two for NPCs would be a huge help.

SGL.

[frogspawner]

Originally Posted by Shaira

Gosh, guys, I must say I'm quite surprised at the negativity shown on this thread...

Well, you shouldn't be. Didn't you know? As Rurik implied, this thread was specifically set up to discuss Soltakss's dissatisfaction with BRP (to avoid clogging up the 'glorantha' thread), in answer to direct questions about it (in the full knowledge he hasn't seen Zero).

Originally Posted by Rurik

I've thought about how to stat up creatures to be universal based on bits' from this board...
That is why I suspect most supplements will include stat's for the base core rules only. I hope I'm wrong.

Don't worry, let 'em stat-up for base core only - it's won't be a problem...

Originally Posted by Jason Durall

Imagine, if you will, an NPC stat block containing all of the optional stuff, perhaps in parentheses to distinguish the stuff. I'll walk you through a combo of the options...
[<long long list that fully justifies the core-only option> snipped]
And I could go on...

Yes, having all those options makes it (almost?) unfeasible to print all the possibilities...

Originally Posted by The Tweaker

I understand it might not be what older fans were waiting for... and I am sorry for you, but for a newcomer like me, it is exactly what I am looking for.

So the books really should use only the simplest, core options - to be newbie-friendly.

Therefore, we old-timers and others who don't want the defaults, could do with a kind of interactive "Foes". A java prog or similar could do the job, I'm sure. Chaosium could stick in on their site. A few radio buttons for options, pop-down the number/type of creatures, some other parameters, press the button - and bingo! Monsters with whatever options you want, ready-to-print...

[Jason Durall]

Had a post here, but it just belabored a point. So deleted.