Dodge

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

First with parry.
It really doesn't matter much how powerful the blow is. It's physics. The object has a vector and you are adding a second vector for movement. So if the object is moving in the -axis and you can apply force from the Y- or Z-axis both vectors will affect the object.

What would matter is how fast the object is travelling and it's mass. The whole point of a parry isto the block the attack but redirect it.

Speed plus mass _is_ power. There isn't any meaningful distinction between the two, as its all about deflecting kinetic energy, and within the game, that's a rather big part of the damage component (some is impact point and other things, but some of those are already factored in other areas).

Sure you can. Let's say someone is swinging a sword at you. If you step back you might only get hit by the point as opposed to the "sweet spot" farther down the blade.

Grazes are, I'll admit, a messy case, but for the most part they're also a marginal case; getting hit by the top quarter or the top half of the blade isn't going to typically make a huge difference, because you just end up applying the same force to a smaller area.

Or if someone is going for you head you could duck or sidestep and only get scratched or grazed along the top of the skill rather than being decapitated.

See my comment about that above. As far as I can tell, its likely the case that a graze is a "miss" by the standards of BRP and RQ, as I doubt the damage typically even translates into a point, given the scale involved.

It isn't so much rolling with the blow, but avoiding the brunt of the blow. All weapons have a sweet spot that does the real damage, and if you avoid contact with that spot, or initiate contact with another spot, like stepping into a halberd and getting hit by the shaft rather than the axe, you mitigate some of the damage.

In the majority of cases, I'd argue you eliminate the vast majority of the damage or none doing that; I don't think there's a lot of middle ground.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Speed plus mass _is_ power. There isn't any meaningful distinction between the two, as its all about deflecting kinetic energy, and within the game, that's a rather big part of the damage component (some is impact point and other things, but some of those are already factored in other areas).

On the contrary there is a bit difference. It isn't additive either. It's not speed plus mass. It more Speed x Mass for Momentum. And Speed Squared x mass/contact area and time to get the effect.

Let's say that you got a object moving at high speed. Now if you can apply force to it at a angle other than the one it is heading in, you will alter the trajectory of the object. Ideally you wont to do so at a right agle from the path the object is headed. Depending on how fast the object is traveling, it's inertia, how much force you can apply and at what angel, and just how far along it's path it has already traveled will determine just how much you can alter it's destination.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Grazes are, I'll admit, a messy case, but for the most part they're also a marginal case; getting hit by the top quarter or the top half of the blade isn't going to typically make a huge difference, because you just end up applying the same force to a smaller area.

Not that marginal at all. Getting hit by the the tip of the blade (the top half is what you are shooting for it you are the attacker. Well, more like the top quarter or third) gives you a better chance of getting a glancing blow. Having a 1/2" deep wound is better than having a 3" deep wound.

Plus just what that smaller area is could make a huge difference. Most dodging moves the point of impact to someplace less lethal. A shoulder hit instead of the head, a strike to the outer ribcage instead of the heart. All good from the defender's point of view, and lowering the damage in game terms.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

In the majority of cases, I'd argue you eliminate the vast majority of the damage or none doing that; I don't think there's a lot of middle ground.

Actually there is. Go check out an Aikido Dojo and see all the people who partially dodged an attack. It's probably more common that a complete success and certainly more common that a failure.
Most martial arts exploit this idea to some extent. Since the impact force is based partly on the relative speed rather than an absolute, and moving in the same direction of the attack will reduce the impact.

The classic case if a fender bender. If Car A is moving 10 mph and car B is traveling behind it at 15mph, then when B slams into A it is with the same effect as a 5mph crash.

Likewise if Rurik thrusts his spear at A speed of 2X and Blinky the Trollkin backpedals at Speed X, Blinky is going to get hit X rather than 2X.

If Blinky can move in such a way to spread out the time of contact he can reduce the injury further.

[Trifletraxor]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Actually there is. Go check out an Aikido Dojo and see all the people who partially dodged an attack. It's probably more common that a complete success and certainly more common that a failure.

I'm not sure this is the same for weapon fighting though. You can maybe roll with a punch, but that's a lot harder to do with a weapon. I've done quite some training with sticks (filippino martial arts), including full contact sparring with limited protective gear. The speed of the weapons are pretty much too fast for the dodge to work partially. Either you dodge the hit or you don't - and my feeling (highly subjective, but still) is that if you don't dodge it fully, you get the full force from the blow.

SGL.

[Trifletraxor]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

Likewise if Rurik thrusts his spear at A speed of 2X and Blinky the Trollkin backpedals at Speed X, Blinky is going to get hit X rather than 2X.

Rurik would be thrusting his spear at a higher speed than double what the trollkin can backpedal. The thrust is very quick, moving a body backwards is not. Anyway, the example is flawed as we all know it's Blinky that impales Rurik, not the other way around.

SGL.

[Rurik]

Hey why don't you just make your sig:

"236/420. Ef plest master, this mighty fine grub!"

And save us all some math?

[Trifletraxor]

Originally Posted by Rurik

Hey why don't you just make your sig:

"236/420. Ef plest master, this mighty fine grub!"

And save us all some math?

Two copies!

SGL.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by Trifletraxor

Rurik would be thrusting his spear at a higher speed than double what the trollkin can backpedal. The thrust is very quick, moving a body backwards is not. Anyway, the example is flawed as we all know it's Blinky that impales Rurik, not the other way around.

SGL.

The example was for demonstration purposes. If I said the spear was moing at 10X and the trollkin backpedaled at X and got hit for 9X the math and example would be just as valid.

Well more like it's is flawed because Rurik attacked Blinky rather than one of the trolls, and thus was vulnerable to Blinky's attack. If Rurik had identified Blinky as a threat and went for him first...

You know one of these day I'll have to print up the Blinky Interview.

Originally Posted by Trifletraxor

The speed of the weapons are pretty much too fast for the dodge to work partially. Either you dodge the hit or you don't - and my feeling (highly subjective, but still) is that if you don't dodge it fully, you get the full force from the blow.

From what I've seen it does work partially. I've done it quite a bit against swords. The problem is basically the same as the revised Blinky example. Taking 1 point off of a 10 point hit is not noticeable, but it is there.

We could giver Dodgers a Dodge Die or give the Dodge Points (DPs) based on skill that function like APs. Maybe 1/10th skill? Double that for a special, and no damage for a critical?

So someone with 50 dodge would have 6 DPs, Dodge 12 points of a special and avoid all damage with a critical.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

On the contrary there is a bit difference. It isn't additive either. It's not speed plus mass. It more Speed x Mass for Momentum. And Speed Squared x mass/contact area and time to get the effect.

I don't recall saying it was additive, A. Please don't imply I did. And while narrow cross section is, all other things equal, easier to deflect, if the force is high enough that's still not a given, and with weapons, unless you're going to use entirely different deflection rules for a mace and a spear, you're not going to be able to handle that right anyway.

Let's say that you got a object moving at high speed. Now if you can apply force to it at a angle other than the one it is heading in, you will alter the trajectory of the object. Ideally you wont to do so at a right agle from the

Of course you will. The question is will you do so enough to _matter_?

Not that marginal at all. Getting hit by the the tip of the blade (the top half is what you are shooting for it you are the attacker. Well, more like the top quarter or third) gives you a better chance of getting a glancing blow. Having a 1/2" deep wound is better than having a 3" deep wound.

But with a cutting weapon there's no guarentee that's what'll happen. You're still applying the same approximate energy, and you've moved the recieving object so it has less space to break. So all you may be doing is trading a long shallow chop for a long shallow slash in a slightly different area (and with no certainty that the area that got it is the better choice).

Plus just what that smaller area is could make a huge difference. Most dodging moves the point of impact to someplace less lethal. A shoulder hit instead of the head, a strike to the outer ribcage instead of the heart. All

No, most dodging _wants_ to, but often the things most likely to get you out of the way in general, if they don't work, may well actually push it into a worst place. As an example, its entirely possible to catch a swing in the head that otherwise would have caught you in the side of the chest.

good from the defender's point of view, and lowering the damage in game terms.

That's an example of what I refered to as "whole body parries" though; if you're dealing with hit location, it doesn't necessarily reduce the damage, just chose where you want to take it.

Actually there is. Go check out an Aikido Dojo and see all the people who partially dodged an attack. It's probably more common that a complete success and certainly more common that a failure.

I spent more than three years in a mixed arts dojo when I was in my 20's. I stand by my original statement. Most "partially dodged" attacks might as well not have been dodged at all, and some actually made the problem worse. A few turned blows into grazes, which I've acknowledged, but I consider those to have been the minority cases, and likely "misses" for our purpose.

Most martial arts exploit this idea to some extent. Since the impact force is based partly on the relative speed rather than an absolute, and moving in the same direction of the attack will reduce the impact.

The classic case if a fender bender. If Car A is moving 10 mph and car B is traveling behind it at 15mph, then when B slams into A it is with the same effect as a 5mph crash.

Likewise if Rurik thrusts his spear at A speed of 2X and Blinky the Trollkin backpedals at Speed X, Blinky is going to get hit X rather than 2X.

That's fair enough, but few dodges i include appreciable amount of movement in the game; they're largely shifts in place, and its hard to move your torso or whole body with the same speed someone can move a melee weapon.

If Blinky can move in such a way to spread out the time of contact he can reduce the injury further.

Its the if I'm questioning in the context of what the game calls a dodge.

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

We could giver Dodgers a Dodge Die or give the Dodge Points (DPs) based on skill that function like APs. Maybe 1/10th skill? Double that for a special, and no damage for a critical?

So someone with 50 dodge would have 6 DPs, Dodge 12 points of a special and avoid all damage with a critical.

The problem is that to the extent I even buy this, I don't think the amount reduced changes, just the likelyhood.

[Atgxtg]

[quote=Nightshade;8616]I don't recall saying it was additive, A. Please don't imply I did. And while narrow cross section is, all other things equal, easier to deflect, if the force is high enough that's still not a given, and with weapons, unless you're going to use entirely different deflection rules for a mace and a spear, you're not going to be able to handle that right anyway.

Excuse me, I didn't imply anything

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Speed plus mass _is_ power.

Your words, not mine.

And it is the same math of speed or mace. It has to do with ovecoming the internia.
You can be going at thousands of m/s and still be deflected by a 10m/s force action on you. It's just that by the time it defects you any meaningful distance you will be far away.

Where's RMS when I need a Physics teacher?

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Of course you will. The question is will you do so enough to _matter_?

Indeed. That is the question. However at the speed and masses of melee weapons, probably so. That is what parrying is all about.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

But with a cutting weapon there's no guarentee that's what'll happen. You're still applying the same approximate energy, and you've moved the recieving object so it has less space to break. So all you may be doing is trading a long shallow chop for a long shallow slash in a slightly different area (and with no certainty that the area that got it is the better choice).

It most every case a long shallow slash is better than a long and relatively not as shallow chop. While the same energy will be in the swing, that does not translate to the same energy to the target.

With a sold hit, the body of the target stops the weapon and soaks up all the energy and momentum of the attack. With a shallow cut, the blade is still moving after contact. Any energy left in the blade is energy not trasnferred to the target.

While location certainly matters, in most cases the location that you will be hit in when dodging is better than the location the attack was orginally going to hit. Typically dodges move the point of impact farther away from the body and father away from the vital spots.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

No, most dodging _wants_ to, but often the things most likely to get you out of the way in general, if they don't work, may well actually push it into a worst place. As an example, its entirely possible to catch a swing in the head that otherwise would have caught you in the side of the chest.

Possible, but unlikely. Very unlikely. Generally you do that by dodging in the wrong direction, like ducking into a chest attack. That is more along the lines of a fumble.


[quote=Nightshade;8616]
That's an example of what I refered to as "whole body parries" though; if you're dealing with hit location, it doesn't necessarily reduce the damage, just chose where you want to take it. [/qute]

But where you take it is a factor in damage in BRP. It isn't so much that an attack might not have any more force in it, but that it hits a more vital spot.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

I spent more than three years in a mixed arts dojo when I was in my 20's. I stand by my original statement. Most "partially dodged" attacks might as well not have been dodged at all, and some actually made the problem worse. A few turned blows into grazes, which I've acknowledged, but I consider those to have been the minority cases, and likely "misses" for our purpose.

Really, I did a lot of it with blades.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

That's fair enough, but few dodges i include appreciable amount of movement in the game; they're largely shifts in place, and its hard to move your torso or whole body with the same speed someone can move a melee weapon.

Nothing in the game really includes any movement except for declared motion. By the book every stands in the same space and trade blows. Realistically they should be moving around some.

And yet it is hard to move the body as easier as it is to move a weapon, but any motion will have an effect on the attack.

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Its the if I'm questioning in the context of what the game calls a dodge.

Do anyone have a copy of Zero to see what the game definition of Dodge is?