Dodge

[Gnarsh]

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

On the contrary there is a bit difference. It isn't additive either. It's not speed plus mass. It more Speed x Mass for Momentum. And Speed Squared x mass/contact area and time to get the effect.

Let's say that you got a object moving at high speed. Now if you can apply force to it at a angle other than the one it is heading in, you will alter the trajectory of the object. Ideally you wont to do so at a right agle from the path the object is headed. Depending on how fast the object is traveling, it's inertia, how much force you can apply and at what angel, and just how far along it's path it has already traveled will determine just how much you can alter it's destination.

I think you're getting too caught up in specifics. Ultimately, the vector*mass of the weapon attack is represented by the potential damage of that attack (damage rolled and modified based on special/crit result, etc).

In the same way, we can say that the capability of the parry to deflect that damage is represented by the AP of the parrying item. It's an abstraction, but one that "works" within this context. A faster/harder blow from a large weapon will be harder to deflect fully then a slower/softer blow from a smaller weapon. Both of those are represented by damage potential and AP (damage stopped).

There's a reason why heavier/bigger shields block more damage. And it's not just because they're "thicker" (which is the assumption for armor for the most part), but because the combination of mass and size allows the wielder to deflect larger attacks. Again, it's an abstraction, but then so is everything in an RPG, right?

Plus just what that smaller area is could make a huge difference. Most dodging moves the point of impact to someplace less lethal. A shoulder hit instead of the head, a strike to the outer ribcage instead of the heart. All good from the defender's point of view, and lowering the damage in game terms.

I would argue that a successful dodge means you avoid getting hit. What you're describing is more like a successful dodge making a special hit become a normal hit instead (one that would have connected solidly, resulting in cracked ribs and a collapse to the floor, ends up only slicing you a bit). IMO, the "success level subtracts" system works well for this.


While I understand the objective here, I also think it's possible to overthink rules and try to make them "too realistic". At the end of the day, we're playing a game, and the concepts and abilities within that game have to "work". While it's possible to have a dodge mechanic that operates by subtracting damage instead of reducing hit levels, it then becomes just another way of parrying. More interesting, with the rise of parry rules with a "parry blocks all" mechanic, it puts us on the odd circumstance of actually having completely reversed the mechanical utility of the two abilities. Somewhat arbitrarily I might add...

If two abilities do the exact same thing, why have two? It makes sense to have parry be the one that subtracts damage, while dodge reduces hit levels. It gives each one a distinctive methodology that may each be effective, but not in exactly the same way. From a game design perspective, this offers the players options to choose from and a reason to perhaps develop both skills (situationally, one will usually be better then the other, but not always). This in turn allows for more depth within the combat system, and is a good thing.



Um... On a side note, we actually did make some slight changes to our parry rules to reflect the whole "you're deflecting, not just blocking" idea. On a special parry, we add half the parrying characters max damage bonus to the AP of the shield (for purpose of parrying). This reflects the idea that sometimes a big strong guy can parry better then a small weak guy. He's going to be more able to muscle that shield into the right position and angle to avoid additional damage.

Dunno. It's just a rule we came up with, tried, and really liked.

[Atgxtg]

Gnarsh

Yeah, it like turning a special into a normal hit. That was the idea.

I did this becuase frogspawner didn't like the idea of opposed rolls for Dodging and commented on how much easier/better parrying worked.

Having a Dodge reduce the damage is one way to accomplish that.

[RMS]

Originally Posted by Rurik

Hey why don't you just make your sig:

"236/420. Ef plest master, this mighty fine grub!"

And save us all some math?

Actually, his statement would be 116+120/420 = 116.286 since you resolve 120/420 before doing addition. How's that for pedantic!

Originally Posted by Atgxtg

And it is the same math of speed or mace. It has to do with ovecoming the internia. You can be going at thousands of m/s and still be deflected by a 10m/s force action on you. It's just that by the time it defects you any meaningful distance you will be far away.

Where's RMS when I need a Physics teacher?

Down sick! I came home after my last lecture today and spent the rest of the day in bad fighting off a fever. I'm feeling better tonight.

mass * velocity = momentum

mass * velocity^2 / 2 = kinetic energy

power = dW/dt where W is the work done over some small time dt, which resolves to P = force * velocity for a constant force. (dW/dt is the derivative, for those who don't recognize the notation.)

In all honesty, I don't think we can really know for certain which is the most important in a real world sense of deflecting or doing damage. In the end, making up something that seems basically right is as close as we're going to get. I'd also note here that for melee weapons and even low velocity projectiles (arrows, javelins, and even early large caliber firearms), velocity is low enough that the difference in momentum and kinetic energy is small enough not to bother getting caught up on. With high velocity firearms, no doubt the difference is large, but for a sword the difference is negligible IMO.

I personally, like the current RQ-style parry. It allows the weapon/shield to deflect a large amount of damage, but it's limited. I love the idea that you can successfully get a weapon in the way and it still isn't sufficient to stop all the damage and that models reality good enough for me.

If I'm not making sense, forgive me. I'm feeling much better, but am still definitely well under the weather.

[Atgxtg]

Originally Posted by RMS

Actually, his statement would be 116+120/420 = 116.286 since you resolve 120/420 before doing addition. How's that for pedantic!

So Triff should use (116+120)/420.

Originally Posted by RMS

power = dW/dt where W is the work done over some small time dt, which resolves to P = force * velocity for a constant force. (dW/dt is the derivative, for those who don't recognize the notation.)

Hey, there is no triangle symbol! Made delta-W and delta-t look funny

[Nightshade]

A, I think this is another case where our basic assumptions are enough at odds that the conversation is moot. I simply flat out don't think your basic presumptions about deflection are correct, at least to the degree you're stating them; you need a significant amount of cross-vector in the energy to delect something enough that its a noticeable effect, and there are significant differences in what degree is involved between that being meaningful for something that delivers most of its damage by supplying force over a wide area (like a mace) or a narrow area (like a blade). As you don't seem to agree with either of those, I don't think we can continue to have this conversation except in terms of "Does! Does not!" and I fail to see how that's useful.

[soltakss]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

I don't think we can continue to have this conversation except in terms of "Does! Does not!" and I fail to see how that's useful.

I can!

Your turn.

[Sven Norén]

Am I the only one to miss the Defense ability from RQ2?

[Kloster]

Originally Posted by Sven Norén

Am I the only one to miss the Defense ability from RQ2?

Nope, I find it useful also. But It should be in addition to a dodge skill.


Runequestement votre,

Kloster

[frogspawner]

Originally Posted by Sven Norén

Am I the only one to miss the Defense ability from RQ2?

No, I do too (or rather, I don't because I still use a variation of it). But I think the RQ2 version was badly flawed: it starts getting silly at about 30% and competent opponents can't hit you; and the higher the skill, the higher the chance of an increase - so it accelerates away badly.

[Trifletraxor]

Well, than you all for the tips. I'm going for the dodge skill as houseruled now in the first post. I'm not sure about the ENC rules yet, but that will wait and see to I get my hand of the book.

SGL.