Countermagic as a Sorcery spell

[Shaira]

Hi all,

I have a direct rules-related question which I'm pondering, and wondering if anyone has experience of the issue. I've pretty much decided that I'm going to be using the BRP Sorcery rules (based of SB5) as my principal magic system instead of the BRP Magic rules (for various reasons), but need to expand the number of spells which are available. I've been writing up "new" spells for the Sorcery system, including several detection spells like Detect Chaos, Detect Undead, but have realised that there are no spells in the Sorcery system as presented which will protect a target from Detection (and other) spells - just an Undo Sorcery spell which sort of works after the fact.

Whilst Undo Sorcery might do the job if I let casters be able to ascertain what spells other casters are casting during the casting period (which the BRP Sorcery rules kind of imply), and therefore cast an Undo Sorcery on the opposing spellcaster who's in the process of casting a "Detect Chaos" sorcery spell, for example, I'm also toying with the idea of introducing a "Countermagic" spell into the sorcery system, effectively allowing spellcasters to protect themselves against targeted sorcery spells in advance.

Does anyone have experience of doing this kind of expansion to the SB5 (or even BRP!) sorcery system, and whether it breaks anything major? I'm not sure whether introducing Countermagic (which is a BRP Magic rather than Sorcery spell) is going to break the Sorcery system in any sense... I can't see anything at first glance, but does anyone have any ideas?

Cheers,

Sarah

[rust]

Why not use something like a "Veil" spell, which only counters detection
spells, instead of introducing the more powerful Countermagic ?

[Trifletraxor]

I hate the detect enemy & detect chaos spells. Detect enemy especially. When ever meeting someone new, the characters can just cast the spell and attack the person if it clicks in. No dramatic surprises when their employer turn out to be a mad malia workshipper who wants unleash plague upon a flokk of nomad herd animals, no difficulty understanding that all the children i the village is ogres, etc. I hate it. Banned it from my games a _long_ time ago.

SGL.

[Atgxtg]

I think you might want to look at the Bronze Grimore if you don't have it. I was a Eleric! supplment that had a bunch of new spells in it. It might have had some form of countermagic.

If not jusr renamed countermagic as "Sorcerer's Ward" or some such as use that. Elric! (SB5) magic wasn't much different that the RQ2/RQ3 Battle Magic spells. Just toss in some sort of negative effect, like a spooky glowing aura to give it that Chaos magic fell and you're ready to go.

[Shaira]

Thanks everyone for the really helpful comments. I'd love to get hold of a copy of the Bronze Grimoire - I may need to lurk around Ebay a bit and see what I can find. Detect Enemy is not a spell I like, and not one I'm planning on speccing up - currently Detect Chaos, Detect Lie, and Detect Undead are the principal ones, and they're all severely restricted in availability.

I must admit I like the idea of a Veil spell - Countermagic is certainly overkill for the specific effect. Although, as I think about it more, I'm thinking Undo Sorcery on its own *might* actually be enough, providing that sorcerors get a chance to spot what kind of magic is being cast by an opponent spellcaster before it takes effect (the BRP Sorcery rules *suggest* that this is the case, as long as the sorceror also knows the spell the opponent is casting). That way - let's say you yourself know Detect Lie, and you can tell someone else is about to cast it on your colleague who's lying through his teeth, you then have the chance to throw up an Undo Sorcery. It might work - although I need to try and work out if this is the intent of the rules. The actual quote is on p127:

"A sorcerer will always recognise the effects of a spell he or she knows when it is cast, regardless of who is casting it."

I wonder if this means an observing sorceror can work out what spell is *being* cast, ie hasn't been completed yet?

Cheers,

Sarah

[rust]

As far as I understand this rule, your sorcerer would have to see the other
sorcerer casting his spell - if he is looking the other way, bad luck for him.
Therefore I prefer the "Veil" spell, which protects the target even it is not
aware of being the victim of a detection spell.

[Gnarsh]

Originally Posted by Trifletraxor

I hate the detect enemy & detect chaos spells. Detect enemy especially. When ever meeting someone new, the characters can just cast the spell and attack the person if it clicks in.

We applied some house rulings to detect enemy to fix that a bit. Basically, it only detects someone who's actively planning to hurt the character casting the spell. So, it's great for detecting that group of bad guys hanging out around the next corner waiting to jump the party, but wont automatically trigger just because someone is a "bad guy".

As a GM, it's important to realize that, appearances to the contrary, it's usually not actually the objective of the bad guys to kill/maim/mutilate the player characters. Presumably, the bad guy has some other objective and the PCs will stumble upon it and potentially spoil his plans. So the evil malia priest planning on spreading plague in the area isn't going to want to actively engage the party if he can avoid it. His first reaction should be "How do I get this group of tough looking people the heck out of this area so I can continue on with my plans...".

IMO, that's *not* going to trigger a detect enemy. Not until he actually decides to attack the party that is.


As to the OP: RQ2 had a spell called "detection block", which worked like countermagic, but only for purposes of blocking detection spells. You could simply create something like that (the "veil" name sounds good for this!).

[CthulhuFnord]

I'd keep that little Grimoire out of the players hands. There's a few very unbalencing spells in that book. There are some prett neat ones too. The Rune section (inscribed spells that go off when read or triggered) is particularly neat and the Necromancy Fumble table particularly amusing.

Originally Posted by Shaira

Thanks everyone for the really helpful comments. I'd love to get hold of a copy of the Bronze Grimoire - I may need to lurk around Ebay a bit and see what I can find.

[Shaira]

I'm actually finding myself creating quite a few new Sorcery spells, either based on previous Chaosium spells or from other systems, or from whole cloth, but I think for now I've managed to avoid Countermagic and gone with using Undo Sorcery and a chance to understand the spell that's being cast - basically the rules as written. Countermagic at this stage looks too unpredictable in its side effects on the Sorcery system, and, well, some of the intricacies of the Sorcery rules look worth exploring. I'm thinking it'll lead to more interesting game play.

I'm probably going to run a short game using RAW in a week or two to test out a few things - it's always tempting to start houseruling from the outset, but I thought I'd see what kind of game you get straight off to begin with. I've been creating a few characters recently and been very satisfied with how smooth and how "BRP-familiar" the whole thing feels.

Cheers,

Sarah

[Daefaroth]

Here are a few spells I pulled from RQII and an old Dragon magazine that worked rather well in my last RQ campaign. The first is a spirit magic spell while the last two are sorcery spells; all three are stated in RQIII terms.

Hope they're of some interest.


DETECTION BLANK Touch, Passive, Temporal
This is a specialized antimagic spell designed to block detection spells. It may be cast to screen any one object, spell, or person from detection. It stops only Sense, Detect, or Find spells, but unlike Countermagic, Shield, or similar spells, it does not let the person doing the detection know that his spell has been blocked. Otherwise, it functions as one point of Countermagic for each level of Intensity.

Simple penetration of this spell by a boosted detection spell does not dispel the overall effect, though the target is clearly detected. Future detection spells must still be boosted to penetrate the Detection Blank.

This spell does not block spells such as Second Sight or Mystic Vision, nor any skill.


MYSTIC BLOCK Touch, Passive, Temporal
This spell blocks all detection of magic on the target if the detection spells don’t overcome this spell’s Intensity. It does not even leave a magical glow on the target: i.e. it appears that the target has no spells on. This is rumored to actually exist, but only by the top Magi.


MYSTIC CLOAK Touch, Passive, Temporal
The spell creates a barrier to spells such as Mystic Vision, Soul Sight, and Second Sight. The target does not even detect to these spells except for Intensity 10 Mystic Vision (which only reveals the presence of a cloaking spell). Spells such as Detect or Find Enemy or various other sense spells are totally unaffected.

This spell also blocks a discorporate being’s ability to see the target’s POW aura. This includes spirits using one of the three previously mentioned spells as well as the innate abilities of ghosts, wraiths, and other such ethereal creatures.