The World of Old-School RPG's is Entering Its Twilight

[rust]

I know, I agree, I apologize ... but in my mind Warhammer always remained
associated with tabletop wargaming, and the fact that Dark Heresy once
again was military oriented did not help much ... sorry, but that is how my
old brain works (at least it used to, before that Alzheimer crawled in ...)

[TrippyHippy]

I'd also point out that Warhammer Fantasy Battle actually came out in the early 1980s (1983), and was sitting very comfortably alongside GWs stable of rpgs and boardgames for several years, without overhadowing them particularly. There was a good mix of all sorts of different game types supported by GW during this time.

The wargame that actually made an impact, and changed their entire business approach, was Warhammer 40K, which came out in 1987 and pretty much dominated White Dwarf magazine (and the GW stores) from that point onwards.

[camazotz]

Hi Ars M. I had to comment....

When I was 25 and a gamer (also graduating from college) it was 1995 and I definitely didn't feel the way you do now. My wife, who is your age, doesn't feel the way you do (she's a hardcore gamer) but she's also a woman who is happy with the same 5 games she's had in her possession and feels no need for more and shinier to replace them. But I think you probably managed to get in on the hobby and see a bit of what it was like before things started changing, which is why you and I feel similarly now.

I think a lot of today's problems arise from media competition. We have a glut of numerous forms of entertainment today that are very flashy and often do all the mental work for the participants. Video games are (imo) the single biggest threat to the table top hobby today, and part of the reason it's not growing and expanding. I think you make a very succinct point that rpgs today are not always a labor of love so much as part of a marketing process, one which will abandon them if they don't seem to be making enough cash. True, I agree....but....

Back in the 80's, (I started gaming as a kid in 1981) every company was tantamount to a small start up, and the level of fun one could imaginatively have with RPGs was far in excess of the kind of interest that games like Zork, Wizardry or Ultima could produce. There simply was no competition for RPGs in terms of entertainment...if anything, books and comics where the biggest direct competitor for time, along with movies. And movies always have been and likely shall remain a separate market for a long time...although it's interesting to note that films today are being challenged by video games, as well, for dollars and time.

Today, as I see it, the growth in the industry is mainly in independent and smaller press publishers; look at all the cool RPGs out of IPR, for example. Some smaller game companies that are entirely focused on the RPG experience are still doing okay, or at least staying focused (Hero, Chaosium, SJGames + or - Munchkin, I suppose; and Mongoose) but I tend to think of WotC with D&D as now being more "mainstream," as it must need to be to survive the expectations of it's parent company. This makes for some really strange times, since it means the market for RPGs has changed so much in the last decade.

I also think that the median age of gamers is older, now. To enjoy an RPG these days, I think you have to have a keen interest in a broader story or more calculated game experience. You need to want to interact directly with real people. You have to be willing to use your imagination. And you need to be willing to be a bit geekier than the nutty Warcraft players, who will call you a geek for playing D&D and other tabletop games while they spend their time in an all-day raid on WoW....without a trace of hypocricy.

I also think that the internet is turning, bit by bit, in to a new sort of lifeblood for tabletop gaming. It's now much easier to produce and get some recognition for your game or product via the web than it ever was before...and easier to make it look good in the process.

My personal method for dealing with this has been to try and focus my purchasing support exclusively on those companies which still fit the "niche" I feel I am in. So I buy interesting games from IPR and continue to support Hero Games, SJGames, Chaosium and Mongoose (when I am confident the book won't blow up in confetti after I open it, that is )

I also try to just relax and find like-minded gamers, who tend to simply enjoy playing whatever games they've always enjoyed....I'm really amazed at the number of people out there who are slowly no longer being fazed by the trendiness of new editions to games.

All that said, I do kind of like the idea of making BRP "The Last Game I'll Ever Need." But I love being a consumer, so I guess I'll keep buying other stuff I like, too....and holding on to the old stuff that's fun. Just because BL stopped publishing/supporting WHFR, for example, doesn't mean it's not still a good game and viable....you just need to be a bigger supporter for it to rally in players and show them how cool it is. If enough people showed loyalty to their faovorite systems over time, they'll get ressurrected eventually, guaranteed. I think BRP is a great example of how loyalty to a system works.

EDIT: Not sure I had a point. Just liked your thread and wanted to comment thru a bit of free-association...

[sinisalo]

Originally Posted by rust

In fact, I have never seen Warhammer as a "real" roleplaying game, from my
point of view it was always more a tabletop game with some roleplaying ele-
ments. Over the years the roleplaying elements became more and more, but
at the core it remained a tabletop wargame - at least that is how I saw it.

I believe, in my humble opinion, that Power Behind the Throne for WFRP is the greatest scenario ever written

[Simlasa]

There's always been competition for the RPG audience...
The guys who initially got me into RPGs were all brothers in a family that didn't have a TV... they're parents wouldn't allow one in the house, so all the kids (there were 6 of em) were raised without it.
They were a fascinating bunch of guys... well read, creative, hilariously funny...

Then one day their parents broke down and bought a television.
I'm pretty sure they never played another RPG...
They certainly became a lot less interesting... since all the stuff they talked about was the same drivel 90% of the other kids were talking about.

As for games going out of print/companies going under... there is some comfort to be taken in knowing that once that happens the rules will NOT being seeing version X.umpity... will not be twisted into some unrecognizeable mess to capitalize on some current cultural trend... they won't become a CMG or have a set of online tools to supplement them... they'll just stay the same great rules you always loved... and play pretty much the same as long as you want them to.

[Aycorn]

Originally Posted by Simlasa

As for games going out of print/companies going under... there is some comfort to be taken in knowing that once that happens the rules will NOT being seeing version X.umpity... will not be twisted into some unrecognizeable mess to capitalize on some current cultural trend... they won't become a CMG or have a set of online tools to supplement them... they'll just stay the same great rules you always loved... and play pretty much the same as long as you want them to.

Yes. I'm afraid I've always felt a bit lost when it comes to this subject. Sure I wish the creators of the game well, but as long as I have the rules, I'll be able to play the game, and teach it to others, whether the game is still in print, being marketed, or even successful.

[Ars Mysteriorum]

Originally Posted by camazotz

Hi Ars M. I had to comment....

[Big, big, big, bigbigbigbigbigbigbig, BIG comment]

It's always interesting to hear another person's take on the world of gaming. I agree that the internet presents a massive potential for expanding into a network of like-minded gamers. I'm just a big, stubborn child and like rolling my expensive, collector's edition Call of Cthulhu dice and the interesting person-to-person contact that playing at a physical table offers.

I think BRP will be a culmination of my existence as a gamer. May we all glory in its awesome old-schoolishness.

Recently I've decided to stop being a d20 basher and see how D&D 4th Edition pans out. They punted gnomes out of the PHB (when I was in high school my friend and I actually thought of creating a class of warriors called "Gnome Punters," with a partner gnome-only class called "Gnome Projectile"), which I agree with. I hated gnomes. A lot.

Still... the prospect of ponying up for all new supplements is a bit daunting...

We'll just have to see.

[area51]

you know that this same conversation was had about chess in the 1950's because of television and penball- who will continue chess.
who well continue poker>?
who well continue rpgs>? give it time a media well appear a method or a sponcership and commercial means that well once again make rpg 'ing a mega dallor industry and it well be "all remember when gameing was somthing only geeks did- it is the turn of the wheel people live and learn it well turn!

[seneschal]

Hero System is a good example of a favorite game resurrected by fan support. The company ran into problems, partnered with Iron Crown to do its publishing, toyed with electronic book versions on floppy disk (this was before ubiquitous Internet access and PDFs), and pretty much went into limbo when ICE itself went bankrupt.

But Hero Games had a web site with an active chat room community that kept hope (and the game) alive for several years. Then a new fan owner with lots of ideas and cash purchased the company and began pumping out new product on a regular basis. Fifth Edition products are back on the shelves.

Traveller has had a harder row to hoe. A fifth edition has been promised for years now, and the official web site was pretty lame last time I visited. But there are scads of fan websites with sample sectors, ships, and NPCs. And the game has migrated to other rules systems such as GURPS and d20, even Risus. I'd still like to get my paws on the reprints of Classic Traveller, although the PDF of Megatraveller is available online.

Wish Action! System had that sort of online support. Gold Rush Games has been in limbo for some time now, and an active fan chat room is invaluable for keeping interest alive.

[drohem]

Ok, I've been off the computer for a week or so and I'm back.

I don't think that old-school RPGs is entering its twilight. There is a revival movement by Goblinoid Games in GORE, OSRIC, Labyrinth Lords, and Mutant Future. The call them Retro-Clone games.

I think that the internet and new PDF format will continue to keep the older games alive long enough for new gamers to discover and start the cycle over again.

I played WoW for a while, but grew tired of politics and economics in a freaking game that was suppose to be my recreational time. I am sure that there are many people and gamers out there that will get disillusioned with that type and style of play in their MMORPG and their table-top RPGs.

4e Dungeons & Dragons seems to have morphed to appeal to the younger MMORPG crowds. I am sure that there will still be plenty of gamers who stick with 3.X Dungeons & Dragons because they don't like that trend in their RPGs.