The Green (discussion)

[soltakss]

Originally Posted by Puck

This bit sounds really good (I love the stilts part). I originally thought that the river folk would be a sort of gypsy or nomad living on their boats and trading with the Freelings or tree people at certain points. They would make yearly migrations from the ravines to the Sea. I had a couple stationary settlements on islands in the middle of the river. A couple of other ports would be places where the bough roads cross the waterways. The rivers were big and the tree people would need to come down to river level to be ferried or use boats of their own.

Have both, or more.

Seriously, how bug is the Green? It's got two massive rivers on the map, if that's what we are using. Why do they have to be the same?

Stilts for two reasons:
1. To keep the huts dry when the rivers flood.
2. Becuase then their houses are like the Forkings - they are like Tree People who don't actually live in the trees.

Have Freelings who live in the Trees and trade with the villagers along the river and also have nomads who travel along the river trading with both.

Don't forget that if the Tree People (and there needn't be just one type) have a taboo about touching the ground then they won't be able to swim and would need help to cross rivers. Imagine a boat with a long mast and no sail with Tree Folk clinging to the mast rather than having to touch the unclean boat, ground or river.

Originally Posted by Puck

Also, gartooth Trogod would be expert fisherman and sometimes trade and interact with men along the rivers. These seem more like the ones who would be digging into the mud in the bank though.

Don't take Mudgrubber too literally. Anyone who picks up roots and fungi from the ground or touches the ground would be a Mudgrubber. Sure, make gartooth Trogod into fishermen who trade with the river villagers, but make them spearmen who swim underwater and catch fish that way. I see the villagers as having quite a sophisticated way of catching fish with artificial shallow pools designed as fish traps and fish-breeding areas as well as nets from boats. They'd take a lot of theior food from the water but would also hunt near their villages, but they wouldn't go far into the Green, perhaps a couple of days.

Originally Posted by Puck

This is where I would like to propose something and see what people think. I would like to have a form of intelligent swamp or river ape based on the Swamp monkeys of the Congo. Something like this: Allen's Swamp Monkey - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The problem is that they are an awful lot like Baboons of Runequest ( I always did like them …there was a wonderful picture on one of the worms footnotes magazines..).:focus:

Sounds good, but they'd have to be fairly far from human settlements otherwise the humans would kill them, unless they were taboo as well.

Originally Posted by Puck

I hate using anything that seems so swiped or so closely related to another game though. I would love to hear people opinions. Also how big should they be? The regular size or gorilla size or somewhere in between.

Have more than one. You've got more than one Goblin race, why not have more than one River Ape? I wouldn't make them carbon copies of real-life apes, though. Big, gentle Gorillas are one thing but big, aggressive killer apes are another. They could then occupy the Runner niche, or at least some of them could.

Originally Posted by Puck

In the past I have called them Mamprusi. They were always at enmity with the goblins because, not only do they like the same fishing holes, but monkeys were too intelligent and refused to make deals with the goblin Totemists or gods at the dawn of time. I had some vague ideas but I never wrote out the myth that detailed the deal between the animals and the Trogod.

That's a nice touch. Perhaps the Trogod stole something from them or upset their gods.

[rust]

Originally Posted by soltakss

What, you don't like dinosaur-riding lizard-folk? Whever not?

In my case, this has nothing to do with your proposal, in fact I like the "Guar-
dians of the Green" idea. It is just bad luck that dinosaur-riding lizard-people
(usually with an Aztec touch) seem to be the newest fashion in German fan-
tasy RPGs - everybody publishes them, everybody plays them, and I am fed
up with them.
But that has nothing to do with The Green, it is just a personal dislike, which
should not influence the work here.

[Puck]

Elves under a different name? You could also have bad, violent ones, orcs under a different name.

I was definitely thinking of that. I had a race of Trogod called Grulkswho had lost their animal attachment. Instead they followed the ways of the Warhiajoo (berserk). They could easily be called orks though. They were not indigenous to the Green. They had been used by the pirates as mercenary marines (kind of a superheavy infantry) when they raided and attacked coastal cities. These Grulks would often hang out in the pirate settlements along the coast. Some may make there way into the Green though because they were outcast, or to find goblin woman and make half-breeds. I think there is more on them in the Trogod section on the Wiki. They were apt fighters in disciplined shield formations or in single combat when they would go warhiajoo on people. Many goblin would look up to the Gulk who are massive strong and sure of themselves. Some goblins would also join the Warhiajoo instead of practicing totemistic ways. I have a bunch of ideas for the Corsair city but that can be left to another time.

[Puck]

Originally Posted by Soltakks: I'd think that new settlers would be found on the ground, unless there was a good reason for them to be up in the trees. If you want people living up in the trees then fair enough, but they'd have to have a good reason to live there. Perhaps the ground is too marshy for them to live on and the rivers flood to often for even stilt houses to be effective. Perhaps they were driven to the trees by predators.

This is again exactly what I had in mind. I hadn’t got to it on the wiki, but the root-world, the land under the trees, would almost be impassible. Boats would have a hard time traversing it because of the maze of huge roots, shallow muddy areas and fallen branches and leaves. Roots would not always be close enough to jump from one to the other. Certain channels may exist, but they would often get clogged up and sometimes lead nowhere. It would be very dark and sticky. Lots of poisonous and nasty creature live hear too: snakes, crocodiles, worms and whatever else could crall into your bed at night for warmth ( I thought that the Mamprusi and crocodile goblins would be adapted enough to live in these areas) . Humans would have to learn to live in the massive tree limbs or on the river or perish. I think this aspect of the Green is what makes it so different. Everything is in channels: the limbs, the roots, the rivers. To go off these paths would be possible, but dangerous.

Close to the mountains are the sky steps. These I thought would be more solid ground where people could go to earth. The really trees would be slightly sparser here as well. As the Green nears the coast I thought it would break into a morass of mangroves and salt marshes, still very hard to navigate through.

Since the Green is so big, I was thinking of only taking the northern section, my original map had it stretching to the unknown south. That section could easily be quite different and allow people to explore other geographical features. We may need more that two rivers to do this. Hopefully the map can easily be changed when the time comes.

[rust]

Originally Posted by Puck

Everything is in channels: the limbs, the roots, the rivers. To go off these paths would be possible, but dangerous. ...
Close to the mountains are the sky steps.These I thought would be more so-lid ground where people could go to earth. ...
As the Green nears the coast I thought it would break into a morass of mangroves and salt marshes, still very hard to navigate through.

A more and more fascinating region - and then the Corsair city and the Grulks
you mentioned ...

Keep going, please !

[Puck]

Wow your comments really have a habit of keeping me going. Thanks again! The problem is I cannot seem to keep up. It is good fun though. I am having a blast working on this stuff with you guys and I appriciate all the help.

[Puck]

Something like the Green cries out for dinosaurs as it is the perfect habitat for them. If you've got dinosaurs then you need someone to ride them and why not lizardmen?

Did I say dragons in the Wiki writeup? Well, dragons and dinosaurs.

Call them something else, but they are fun and they scare PCs silly.

If you make them into an elder race full of wisdom then they are like Dragonewts, which people don't like because they are Gloranthan.

I'd make them the Guardians of the Green, Keepers of the Ancient Ways, Descendants of the Ancients with a lot of Ancient Technology/Magic in their Cities. Give them a Gate as well, for fun. Make them tough so people won't mess with them, or make them weak with big pets so people don't mess with them. Make them bloodthirsty to scare people away.

But, I was just throwing ideas around.

I could see the Green as being written with just one culture and one set of people which would spoil such a large and diverse area.

Holy Smoke there is a lot here. I am in total agreement with both of you. There are so many different varieties out their: Aztec Lizardmen from Warhammer, Slarges, must be 10 kinds from D+D by now (I don’t know because I don’t follow this), and then the killers: the dragonewts and newtlings. These last ones are so cool that it is daunting as anything kind of pales beside them. I do not own mrq’s Dragonewts so I do not even know where they have gone with it, but from all reports it sound that now they are even cooler. Another existing strength of lizardmen has been the artwork. Drawings as well as miniatures have been stunning and varied. The problem is again coming up with something that is fresh, new, and then somewhat familiar. I was not even going to take on lizardmen for the Green at least originally and maybe write something later on if people were interested.

This is what I had in my old world. If you remember, somewhere in the mythic past the elves, shea or whatever had huge fight with the Orms(dragons). According to the histories orms were thrown down and slain. Well there were hints that three had survived deep in the mountains, in swamps or off the edge of the known world. (All this history could be myths. There could also be more than three orms as well allowing for other people to create more in their parts of the world). Instead of going into it more here I am just going to drag it out of the ancient file of my computer. This is pretty old, and focuses more on the dragons than on the lizard men, but would this kind of thing work at all???


ORMS
A terror out of legend, the Ormish race is perhaps the most ancient on Efirvia. The Ormish kind barely survived an epic pre-historical war with the Shea. They were hunted to near extinction but a few of the terrible matriarch beasts managed to survive and hide themselves deep in the bowels of the earth. Through the long years they have slowly bred and spread their spawn on the land.
The Ormish races come in a wide variety, but they all hatch from the egg clutches of the great queen dragons that have survived from times before history. As legend has it the queens are huge, malevolent and awesome to behold. The very sight of a great dragon will freeze a mans blood. They are old and wise beyond mans reckoning and they have forgotten more magic than mankind will ever know. Most likely all the Dragon queens have unlocked the secret of undead immortality and are now beyond the reach of mans power. Luckily for mankind they sleep far beneath the mountains and have not stirred in centuries. The last record of an awakened dragon in the early years of the Thuron reign mentioned that the beast destroyed an entire city. Unfortunately their offspring are not so shy. It is said in the old Shea records that:
" The Terrible behemoths are known to commonly lay two types of eggs: That of
Naga and the other of the Dragon's Spawn. Of the two eggs, that of the
spawn is the largest. These hatch into miniature versions of the their foul mothers
Which, fortunately neither grow to be as wicked or as large as the great beasts.
The Naga eggs are much smaller and hatch into foul snakelike beings which are
cruel and intelligent but less mighty than the spawned young.".

Much of the Sombrian research done on Dragonkind is based on these lines from the ancient text. It is also surmised later in the text that once in a millennium a third kind of egg is laid: that of the great dragons themselves. Others believe that a great eggs may be dropped more often but the mothers crush them in cruel abortion.
Three great mothers are still believed to exist based upon the Three strains of dragon spawn and Naga that are commonly hatched.

The Black Strain: The black strained Orms are very dark in color and heavily scaled, some are known to have red diamond shapes on there backs. They are very slimy and have affection for dark wet swamps, caves and muddy areas. They are thought to be the children of Schlalchs the Black.

The Coral Strain: The brightly colored highly poisonous hatchlings of Strighth are beautiful but deadly. The striped coral orms are generally the smallest but highly intelligent and malignant. They tent to dwell in marshes, deep forests and jungles. Some of the coral strain are only in color at certain times during the year. At other times their skin is a light green.


The Horned Strain: The children of Glaaksh the Spined One are the largest of the Dragon kind. They are dry of scale with many spiny protrusions on their bodies. Horned orms run from sable to tan in color and dwell in dry climates. Sand and Desert mountains are the home to Glaakshs offspring. Glaaksh's spawn are well known to the Kaharian continent but seldom are found on the plains of Perosia.


Worm strain: The horrid young of Gluydtha the slimy are leg-less and worm-like. The resting place of these Orms is deep below the earth, where they dig tunnels and plot under mountains were the sun cannot touch them. There are no true naga or brood of the worm strain, but the spawn vary greatly in form and size. None have any workable limbs.

DRAGON SPAWN

The Dragon spawn are massive creatures of malignant disposition. They run anywhere from 15 to 100 feet long and come in a wide variety of shapes and colors depending on their mothers.
The spittle and breath of these creatures is foul and poisonous in the extreme and the very air of their lairs is noxious.

Black Spawn:
The black spawn of Schlalsh have poisonous burning spittle that is death to even inhale. They are known have four legs as well as a pair of wings, but many are long and limbless like a great flying serpent.
Coral spawn:
The Coral spawn are the smallest; sometimes only 15 feet long. They are the most cunning of the known spawn and spit a blinding burning poison.
Horned Spawn:
The Spined spawn of Glaaksh are the largest and rarest of the creatures. They dwell deep in mountains and have a lust for human gold and flesh. Many spined spawn are too large to become fully airborne without gliding from cliff tops. Their breath is foul and wreaks but does not have the potent poisons of their cousins. The skin of Glaaksh's children is nie impenetrable.

NAGA:
The mothers of the dragon brood are the Naga. Naga are hatched directly from the mothers eggs. The Naga then disperse and lay the eggs of the lesser dragonbrood. Naga have the lower half of a serpent and the upper torso of a humanoid. Naga are extremely intelligent and are usually powerful spell casters in their own right. Like all dragonkind naga are variable in size and shape.

Black Naga: Coral Naga: Horned Naga:

DRAGON BROOD
The eggs of the naga hatch into the dragon brood races. Like the Spawn and Naga, there are three types of dragonbrood: the black, slimy swamp dwellers; the poisonous brightly colored corals; and the large, scaled, desert-wandering grandchildren of Glaaksh.
Dragon Brood are by far the most common sort of orm as well as the least intelligent.
Some are led by the naga that bred them and others roam free and have forgotten their heritage.

This allows for different types of lizardmen and kind of ropes them into one background. The most important part would be the Naga and the brood at the end. I with I would have written more on them and less on the dragons. Oh well.

[rust]

Yep, I think this would be a very good idea. If you make them rare enough
to avoid serious "ecology problems" (e.g. what do they feed on, etc.), and
perhaps move them a little bit more towards strange dinosaurs, they would
fit my "mental picture" of The Green perfectly well - not that they have to
fit my imagination, this is just my opinion.

[Puck]

I was imagining they would all be pretty rare, but dragons would be way more rare than the Naga and brood. I erased the stats before I posted but the Naga were very dangerous, intelligent(probably spellcasters,possibly using types of hypnotism) and would generally be in charge of their broodlings (lizardmen). Each race would be a little different though horned nagas may just lay their eggs and leave their young, Black nagas would act like cult leaders. Their gods would of course be their grandfathers.

The one time I ran them in a game a few brood were found and killed. Some wise man in the local village or knowledge temple had an idea of what they were and that they would keep coming until the Naga was hunted down to its lair and killed. Naga lairs should be very dangerous places. This was the only time I used a dragon as well. It was a hatchling that the Naga was trying to raise+protect and hoped to eventually control.

[Atgxtg]

In a past campaign I had created a an intelligent species based on the Trodon. They might fit it really well here.

I also had a race, called the Wylde, that were a sort of bark-skinned, forest dwellers. Maybe they could fill the "elf" role.