New BRP game

[Al.]

Originally Posted by AikiGhost

Sounds like an overly complex kitchen sink fantasy heartbreaker kind of thing with no core theme. In other words, "having lots of kewl stuff in does not a good setting make".

Likewise merely the lining up a few buzzwords from rpg net do not a constructive review make...............

Apologies if that sounds a bit combative but slating someone's magnum opus without reading the bloody thing strikes me as being a bit of a poor show

Originally Posted by AikiGhost

What do PCs do in this game? What is it actually about?

Those on the gripping hand are interesting questions.



Al the hypocrite

[sladethesniper]

Well, OK, in order then:

Sounds like an overly complex kitchen sink fantasy heartbreaker kind of thing with no core theme. In other words, "having lots of kewl stuff in does not a good setting make."

Well it was never "designed" to be a complex kitchen sink fantasy heartbreaker kind of game. The actual complexity derives from why it was created in the first place. I like sci-fi and hard tech, my wife and brother in law prefered fantasy...so instead of converting Shadowrun, which was a failure from a mechanics viewpoint...I went ahead and designed my own game along the lines of a "generic fantasy world" and added in a timeline that took into account things like non-magical races wanting/needing something to allow them to even continue to exist...for example technology.

Also, I was tired of magic being so..."one size fits all"...so I designed magical systems for each of the races based on their culture and had each type of development actually help shape the culture....

So that, in a nutshell is how all the "kewl stuff" showed up...

What do PCs do in this game? What is it actually about?

The same thing they do in every other RPG game...engage in illegal and immoral activity for "good" reasons. In my game, however, it tends to focus on espionage, criminality and skullduggery...as opposed to dungeon crawls (although they are possible). The focus of the game is very much on the present and the short term future as opposed to ancient riches, cultures and artifacts.

What is the main theme driving the setting?

The game is primarily about (at the risk of sounding overly intellectual) cultural conflicts, which is mechanistically shown by the fact that although there are pegasi and attack helicopters...PC's can't have both.

What marks it out from 100 other kitchen sink settings?

As for what marks it out from 100 other kitchen sink settings...I don't think I've ever really seen one, unless RIFTS, Star Wars and Warhammer 40,000 count....in which case this setting would differ from the others by:
RIFTS: Uh, well my setting developed into the way exists and although there are some dimensional gates, they are highly regulated and everyone follows certain rules...demons and gods included.

Star Wars: Magic is an actual force and not used as Deus ex Machina to move the story forward. Also, SW tends to be very epic in scope, while my setting is far more "film noir", than space opera...also, the darker aspects of the game tend to reinforce a nihilistic worldview...(unintentional, I assure you) so that the "feel" is a quite similar to old Cyberpunk (the 2013 era, not the 2020, or the 203X era).

Warhammer 40,000: My game has a lot in common (equipment wise) with this setting, but is about 1/10th as dark, not epic and is far less focused on mass combat.

As far as the "Feel" of the game, it heavily resembles old CP 2013 and Shadowrun (when it was still "new") instead of D&D or RuneQuest.

Do you convert scenarios from other systems then, or do you go with a more improvised approach when you game? Some short scenarios, or game aids like found item list and encounter tables with statted foes, goes very well with regional supplements.

I am a far more improvisational writer, but I make very detailed settings. Of late, writing adventures is becoming easier, but I think that NPCs, plot hooks and detailed information are going to be what I put in the regional books.

What are your plans for your first publications, and how far along the track are you?

I would like for it to be published by a game company in hard copy, and have sent a few emails and am in the "waiting for a yes or no" stage. It is in final editing and playtesting stage. If more than two years go by with no deal, I'll just PDF it and put it up on here.

Thanks for the feedback.

-STS

[Wolverine]

I don't want to sound negative, but to be honest, this setting doesn't interest me what-so-ever. Why, you may be asking? You have failed to sell it to me. It's all great telling us that you have 60 playable races, that you have this and that in your world. That's just glitter. You've not told us nothing about how the world works, how you plan to apply the BRP mechanics, what makes your game better than all the others on sale. All you've done is taken buzz words from other similar games and applied them to your own. Your game sounds rather like a Cyberpunk meets Sword and Sorcery; another take on the Shadowrun or RIFTS. And can I ask you, do we need another game like that on the market? What is going to make people like myself buy your game instead? What makes it different and unique?

[lawrence.whitaker]

The idea of 60+ playable races, and 173 pages of skills and powers makes my head spin a little, but this is clearly a labour of love for you, and that you've got this written into a playtestable form is a great credit to you. I also think there's a lot of good ideas in the snippets you've provided, and the idea that even the gods have to obey the rules is something I could have real fun with.

The game is primarily about (at the risk of sounding overly intellectual) cultural conflicts, which is mechanistically shown by the fact that although there are pegasi and attack helicopters...PC's can't have both.

Cultural conflict is great. But I don't understand how denying PCs pegasi AND assault copters translates into a reflection of cultural conflict. Surely cultural conflict is about the clash of ideologies, beliefs and social codes? You can certainly have mechanics to handle that, but it seems to me that limiting what PCs can and can't have in terms of magic/mythic kit and hi-tech kit is more a game balance thing than a solid attempt to reflect cultural tensions. Perhaps you could explain a bit more?

I would like for it to be published by a game company in hard copy, and have sent a few emails and am in the "waiting for a yes or no" stage. It is in final editing and playtesting stage. If more than two years go by with no deal, I'll just PDF it and put it up on here.

And this is where you may run into trouble. A 600 page core book is unlikely to be attractive for a professonal publisher. It carries several risks:

Format, layout and editing such a huge book will be a massive job. Games companies have limited time and resources, and tackling 600 pages, plus 173 pages of skills and powers (which will need cross-reffing, double checking for fit, consistency and balance, etc), may not be attractive simply in terms of the amount of time it will take.

The second risk is physical size. A 600 page book, even in paperback, is going to be a monster tome to physically print, bind, ship and display. This indicates a high price-point, which may put customers off. Also, there's artwork to be considered - a LOT will need to be commissioned to break up the text and that pushes-up the page count. The book, with 600 pages of text, once layout and art s factored in, could be up to 700 pages - double the size of BRP Zero, for instance.

The third risk is Licence. Have you submitted this to Chaosium? If its using BRP, then you really need to. Unless, of course, you've found a publisher who has licenced BRP already. If you haven't, and you decide to PDF or go for prnt on demand, then you'll need to have some form of agreement with Chaosium to use the BRP system.



All that said, I do wish you well with the work, and I've enjoyed reading the snippets you've put-up here.

Lawrence

[sladethesniper]

Originally Posted by Wolverine

I don't want to sound negative, but to be honest, this setting doesn't interest me what-so-ever. Why, you may be asking? You have failed to sell it to me. It's all great telling us that you have 60 playable races, that you have this and that in your world. That's just glitter. You've not told us nothing about how the world works, how you plan to apply the BRP mechanics, what makes your game better than all the others on sale. All you've done is taken buzz words from other similar games and applied them to your own. Your game sounds rather like a Cyberpunk meets Sword and Sorcery; another take on the Shadowrun or RIFTS. And can I ask you, do we need another game like that on the market? What is going to make people like myself buy your game instead? What makes it different and unique?

Ok, I'll bite...

How the world works...an odd question. I have been playing RPG's for about 20 years and I have never, ever thought "how does X setting work?" Generally, I look at a product and think "cool", "meh" or "blah". The discriminator tends to be the ideas and information contained within, and the completeness of the presented material.

If I had to say how it works...(I don't really think I am understanding the question)...it is a fantasy world divided into three major factions (religious nations, technological nations and magical nations) that tend to follow racial lines (fey, humanoid and goblinoid) and how they all have to deal with each other because none of them is stronger than the other two, thus it is a balancing act between all three power blocs. These power blocs are not monolithic which serves to weaken them and allow PC's the ability to manipulate events (through their actions) on a very minor level with extreme effort, but world wide change is pretty much out of their hands.

How the setting will use the BRP rules? I would hazard a guess with "as written" with 2 new attributes, two new rules for combat (both optional) and a new way to compute hit points which is viable for both organic and inorganic objects, regardless of size, and the addition of damage classes.

As for buzz words...I was not aware that I was using them. Indeed, in this hobby, I had never given thought to buzz words since, to me, gaming simply doesn't move at a pace that lends itself to buzz words. I would probably be hard pressed to identify a gaming buzz word. Perhaps "dice", "setting", "book", "rules" and "feel" qualify as buzz words?

As far as how the game sounds, well it probably does sound like Cyberpunk meets Sword and Sorcery...that is a big part of it.

It is called an approximation. That description is a function of using commonly referenced or well known works ("settings" to use a "buzz word") to describe an unknown...attempting to describe an unknown with common terms is obviously a bit general since if I was going to be as specific as possible, I'd have to post about 300 pages on here to describe all the races and nations and history...

As for being another take on RIFTS or Shadowrun...it is similiar...in the way that Star Trek movies are similar to Star Wars movies...they are in space, focus on humans, technology is advanced and there are aspects of fantasy...perhaps we shouldn't watch any more of that Sci-Fi...it's all the same with that focus on the future and technology...

Do we need another game like this on the market? No, there is no need for any game to be on the market. Gaming is not necessary for life, therefore there is no need for the internet either...or porn or a tabacco industry, yet all of them exist, even without a need.

What is going to make people buy it? Nothing at this point, since it is not for sale.

As for what makes it unique or different...well it's a game, about roleplaying, with science fiction and fantasy...guess there isn't anything unique about it...so I guess you don't have to buy it Wolverine. I won't quit my day job

As for lawerence.whitaker's question:

Tech and magic are counter cultural and thus the difficulty in attempting to use both. For instance a being grows up using magic, everyday, all day. It's taught in schools. He has a job using magic. Then he travels to a tech city...guess what, he is not going to understand how to drive a car, or fly a plane or use a computer...why? Because his reality is different and it doesn't follow the same rules as another beings reality.

Eventually, with time, he might learn how to drive a car or fly a plane but will never understand the underpinnings of HOW a car works or a plane flies...just as a technologically indoctrinated being will ever understand how a bunch of squiggly lines on a stone wall can teleport a being thousands of miles away in the blink of an eye. He will know that it works, but never understand how.

Thanks for the feedback.

-STS

[lawrence.whitaker]

Tech and magic are counter cultural and thus the difficulty in attempting to use both. For instance a being grows up using magic, everyday, all day. It's taught in schools. He has a job using magic. Then he travels to a tech city...guess what, he is not going to understand how to drive a car, or fly a plane or use a computer...why? Because his reality is different and it doesn't follow the same rules as another beings reality.

Eventually, with time, he might learn how to drive a car or fly a plane but will never understand the underpinnings of HOW a car works or a plane flies...just as a technologically indoctrinated being will ever understand how a bunch of squiggly lines on a stone wall can teleport a being thousands of miles away in the blink of an eye. He will know that it works, but never understand how.

And thanks for the speedy answer!

Am I right in assuming, then, that the three cultural blocs inhabit parallel realities, but not the same physical reality? If so, then yep, I can buy the above.

If they co-exist in the same plane, on the same world, then I have trouble with it. Every culture inhabiting the same physical space, if it has the means to travel and communicate, is going to absorb elements of the cultures it meets and disseminate elements of its own. In that regard, it would be nigh-on impossible to keep your fae, human and goblinoid cultures as distinct as you say they are. And, if you have a fae mage who is capable of understanding deep esoteric and magical theory, why wouldn't he also grasp the principles of physics, or the co-ordination skills, needed to drive a car? That's where I have a problem with using clear divisions between magic users and tech users, as exclusive propositions, if the three cultures inhabit the same plane of existence. It seems to be more of a game balance mechanic to limit PCs power, rather than a genuine way of representing different cultures and how they clash.

You can, by all means, have magic use as a dominant cultural trait in one society, and tech use in another, but saying that one culture will never understand the trappings of another is rather artificial. Cultures always exchange doctrines, practices and understandings. That's how the world works. Someone might not choose to understand magic or tech, but there'll always be those who strive to do so, in order to gain an advantage or an edge over their enemies, if for nothing else. If there isn't this possibility, then the premise is rather short-changing the PCs and limiting all kinds of great adventuring potential too. One of the things that made Shadowrun so fun was the ability to play an Elven, magic-wielding street samurai who could teleport, but was also equipped with cyberware and tech augmentations.

But, as I say, if you have three 'bubble' realities, or the cultures occupy parallel dimensions, where the laws of the universe are unique, then I can buy what you're saying!

[sladethesniper]

It's not like they can never, ever, ever understand it...it's more along the lines of being difficult.

Magic, Spiritualism, Divine Magic, Psionics, Technology, et al. all exist, but the methods for getting them to "work" are different. To solve the culture/game balace issue...I made skill lists for each of the 15 types of development and one I called universal. A character can pick skills from the universal list and ONE of the 15 cultural skill lists and buy skills as normal. If they want to learn skills from another culture, it costs double, and if they wan to learn skills from a third, they cost triple, etc. Thus they can learn skills from different cultures, but it is difficult and why would you want to learn how to drive a car, you can fly? Alternately, why would you want to learn how to cast fireball, you have an assault rifle with a grenade launcher?

Several of the races live in "co-terminus" planes...as do the deities. The primary method of ensuring cultural cross pollination is historical precedent.

From the Prologue (post #5)

Steel and Iron Will describes the other central conflict within this setting, technology versus magic, or more generally the conflict between cultures. This is a world where magic has existed for thousands of years, but its presence has not somehow stopped progress, but assisted it. The reason for the dichotomy is that magic is an art and a science that takes a lifetime to truly master, and the longer lived races simply have more time to learn the most difficult of rituals and spells. The shorter lived races faced a severe shortcoming when dealing with magically inclined races until the invention of hard technology, so called because technology continues to progress beyond the level of those who developed it. Technology allows for rapid development, while magic does not. A being does not have to know how an internal combustion engine works in order to use it. The reverse is true of magic or psionics, a being must be intimately familiar with the theories of magic and the mental disciplines in order to use even the most simple of these abilities. Thus, magical societies and beings are forced to be specialized in their skill sets, while technological societies and beings are allowed to be much more general in their skill sets while still enabling them to be competitive with magical cultures.

From the Tech chapter:

The end effect of this many technological systems coexisting is obviously chaos. What must be remembered is that each system has its own particular strengths and weaknesses, which allow it to continue to be a viable systemic technology. If this were not true, then they would have been abandoned for a more reliable technological paradigm. For this reason, many of these systems are considered to exist in a state of developmental parity with each other. Those technological systems are deemed to be primary paradigms, while other systems are recognized as being a supplementary system

From the Campaign chapter

Although it would seem at first to be problematic having all of the different flavors of magic, plus psionics and religion present and in competition with each other, it should not be so. What is important for the GM and the players to remember is that each technology type is, at this point in Vhraeden's history, equal in regards to effects. That means that for the time being, a magic user is just as capable as a high technology user. They are effectively equivalent to each other. What is also important to remember is that each form of technology exists independently of each other.

An analogy is the world of today. African bushmen and South American tribesmen still practice their native traditions (spiritualism and shamanism respectively) in the modern world, while various religions (divine favor, infernal corruption, abyssal insanity and the druidic path) obviously still exist side by side with technology (low tech, mid tech, high tech and ultra tech are all still present, it just depends on where you go). Devotees of magic and witchcraft are obviously real, they just exist on the fringes of everyday society and thus are often discounted by the mainstream. Meanwhile New Age (empathy) adherents obviously are real and have organized communes and ESP (psionics) is very slowly gaining acceptance by the academic community. Biotechnology (analogous to BioMagic) is not only real, but a billion dollar industry. All that is different about Vhraeden is that these systems are all very much alive and well, are all accepted as “real”, and thus are not on the decline.

With regard to societal variation based on a technological system basis, again we can look to our own planet. On one world, there is a civilization that can transplant organs, microwave food in less than a minute, nuke other countries to smithereens, and fights over civil rights of various lifestyles and the evils of fast food... while at the same time a civilization that still wears animal skins for clothing, fights with spears, and has no written language exists. A civilization that has so much food available that it pays its farmers NOT to grow more...on the same planet with entire NATIONS of people who are malnourished and starving to death? So, why can't Orks have technology on the same planet with Elves who cloak themselves in magic? It doesn't seem quite as far fetched when you compare it to reality...which is quite similar in many ways.”

The reason for this is that the system of technology is tied to the culture of the area where it was developed and, lets face it, people (and by extrapolation, all sentient beings) are resistant to change. If an elf knows magic, why would he waste time learning about technology or spiritualism? They wouldn't.

If you are still uncomfortable with running Vhraeden as a polyglot technological world, don't. Remember, it's your game.

One of the most important things to remember about Vhraeden is that it is an open ended world. There has been every effort made to remove any trace of artificiality that is commonly present in RPGs. This is a world of chaotic and violent co existence. As stated in the introduction, this is a world where there are many different viewpoints on all aspects of life including technology, religion, history, race, and identity.

Although Vhraeden is a complex world of several billion sentient beings, there is a very important question that must be asked. Of all the beings on Vhraeden, how many are playable characters? While the rules of this game would allow you to play any conceivable character, the truth is that there are very few “playable characters”. The reason for this is simple. Normal people are simply not that interesting.

It is possible to create and play a college student with a full time job at a fast food restaurant, but why would that be interesting? You could create and play a private in any army in the world, but unless you like roleplaying being tired, hungry, training and cleaning, there is little to recommend it. The interest that player characters generate over normal people (non-player characters) is not in their statistics, abilities, skills or any other quantifiable area. What sets a good player character apart from the vast majority of the population is their mindset and the choices they have made.

While it is possible for most people to become an assassin with enough training, there are not a lot of assassins running around comparatively. By way of comparison, based purely on the concrete selection criteria, most people could be cops, crime bosses, special forces or astronauts if they decided to do so early in life and pursued their ambitions. Then why are there so few of these professionals in existence? The answer is simple, most people don’t have the drive to push themselves above the mediocre. Therefore, what sets a “player character” apart from the average person is simply drive, ambition and motivation.

That is not to say that the only characters that are useful, unique or interesting are player characters. Quite the opposite. It is just that the vast majority of NPC’s have chosen to follow a more mundane and socially acceptable life path than the that of most player characters. For instance a normal person will have skills such as cooking, driving automobile (or ride appropriate animal), basic math, writing a language, speaking a language, reading a language, credit rating, five to ten skills that relate directly to their job (about 50-70%) and about ten skills that are considered to be hobbies (40-70%). The remainder of a characters skill points will be used in esoteric skills that the character may have forgotten all about such a second language they learned in secondary education, various classes on physics, biology, chemistry, sports rules, a few martial arts moves, a weapon skill, magical theory and other such sundry one semester classes and passing interests at about 10-25%.

This methodology of universe creation is far different than most other games, which gives player characters all sorts of “special” powers and abilities which are simply impossible for normal beings to possess. Vhraeden makes no such allowances delineating characters from non-player characters. This allows both players and the GM to create any sort of character from a mentally deficient homeless alcoholic halfling refugee that grew up in state schools and knows very little besides how to panhandle all the way to a laboratory created genetically modified elf super warrior outfitted with millions of Imperial Marks worth of equipment and every type of character in between.

In the original version of Vhraeden, the campaign style I chose was deliberately dichotomous. I merely took the conventions of other RPG settings and modified them. I had megacorporations engaged in corporate wars over resources where heavily cyberized street punks were a constant threat, drugs and money were omnipresent and the only way to stay on top of the dog eat dog Western World was to dish out cash and slap on augmentation like there was no tomorrow. The East was the magical world where there were evil gods, powerful wizards and paladins riding out to wage crusades against the vile forces of darkness. This was the area where magic ruled, and if you were not a wizard or a magical item monger, you were going to die. The rest of the world developed from that model, and that is the campaign style for which this setting was deliberately designed for, although all of the genre’s and campaigns work well.

Thanks for the feedback. I appreciate it.

-STS

[sladethesniper]

Originally Posted by lawrence.whitaker

A 600 page core book is unlikely to be attractive for a professonal publisher. It carries several risks:

Format, layout and editing such a huge book will be a massive job. Games companies have limited time and resources, and tackling 600 pages, plus 173 pages of skills and powers (which will need cross-reffing, double checking for fit, consistency and balance, etc), may not be attractive simply in terms of the amount of time it will take.

The second risk is physical size. A 600 page book, even in paperback, is going to be a monster tome to physically print, bind, ship and display. This indicates a high price-point, which may put customers off. Also, there's artwork to be considered - a LOT will need to be commissioned to break up the text and that pushes-up the page count. The book, with 600 pages of text, once layout and art s factored in, could be up to 700 pages - double the size of BRP Zero, for instance.

The third risk is Licence. Have you submitted this to Chaosium? If its using BRP, then you really need to. Unless, of course, you've found a publisher who has licenced BRP already. If you haven't, and you decide to PDF or go for prnt on demand, then you'll need to have some form of agreement with Chaosium to use the BRP system.

All that said, I do wish you well with the work, and I've enjoyed reading the snippets you've put-up here.

Lawrence

The size is an issue. I've considered breaking into three "region books" or a "setting" book and an "equipment" book. I would be willing to go with either option. I started writing it and just kept adding to the same word file and now it's big. How it is broken up matters little to me.

As for the price point, I personally couldn't care less. The only thing that I do care about is artwork and I can drop 3-4 grand into that if I have to.

The book is done from my vantage point. It is getting edited now so that by the end of the year, all I will need is .jpg's and .png's to insert into the word file, PDF it and give it to someone to print.

So, if I have it "my way", I will have paid for the art, the writing, the editing and everything else...but someone needs to print and distribute it. If I have the option, I would cut my share of the deal to zero dollars to have the retail price be about 20$...the cost to the publisher and the cut to store owner.

This is neither a labor of love, nor a job. It is a hobby and I like to make stuff for other people to, hopefully, enjoy. Plus, I just really like game stats...

-STS

[AikiGhost]

Originally Posted by Al.

Apologies if that sounds a bit combative but slating someone's magnum opus without reading the bloody thing strikes me as being a bit of a poor show

Yes my leanings towards rules light, theme heavy settings are well known on RPG.net its true. That doesn't make the questions any less valid.

Why would I pick this up over say Glorantha or playing in Moorcocks multiverse or the Warhammer world? What are main themes and ideas in the setting? What types of story is it best for.

There is no way in hell I'm reading through 100 pages of bumpf to find out if I'm going to like something or not never mind 600+

Basically games that are all about the number of different races and nations (OMG!!! 50+ playable races, over 100 nations, etc, etc) are not what I'm after in games these days. I have plenty of well supported and professionally produced kitchen sink settings. Any game that breaks through now has to be exceptional in one regard or another IMHO, having a solid set of core themes is one of these areas.

Old School style settings are fine, I just have enough good ones already (Stormbringer, Glorantha, Warhammer, Artesia: Known Worlds, etc)

EDIT: Also the setting sounds VERY similar to "Gatecrasher" look it up its been around for a good while (Its a FUDGE setting)

[lawrence.whitaker]

As for the price point, I personally couldn't care less. The only thing that I do care about is artwork and I can drop 3-4 grand into that if I have to.

But a publishing company will. Any company that publishes professionally produced books has printing and distribution costs to take into account. That's a financial risk to them, and so the size of the book, which will influence their costs, and thus the price point, will be a big factor. This is where I can see you having problems interesting a professional games company.

The book is done from my vantage point. It is getting edited now so that by the end of the year, all I will need is .jpg's and .png's to insert into the word file, PDF it and give it to someone to print.

So, if I have it "my way", I will have paid for the art, the writing, the editing and everything else...but someone needs to print and distribute it. If I have the option, I would cut my share of the deal to zero dollars to have the retail price be about 20$...the cost to the publisher and the cut to store owner.

Then self-publishing is probably your best bet. This gives you the level of control you're looking for. A games company will want to impart its own control of the book if its going to spend money on publishing, printing and distributing it. If you go the self publishing route, then you're shouldering the risk and outlay yourself - which you seem to be willing to do - and maintain complete control.