Vampires that don't suck--hopefully

[Dredj]

I was thinking for some time about creating a vampire game that really is horrifying--but fun to play. Let's face it, most vampire games just aren't scary. I mean, how scary is some effeminate, homoerotic, emo--thoroughly Ann Rice inspired--vampire who's worried about becoming a monster, anyway? Is that even fun to play?

I guess that could be scary and fun for some people, but I think it's pretty lame all around.

And the others are just too fantastical. Or they're set in a gothic nightmare world, etc. Or, at least that's what it seems to someone who's not going to spend all his money looking at all that's out there, vampire-wise.

However, I want to take the whole "personal horror" to a new--or at least different level. What I propose is that the game is played something like a tasteless joke where the players are asked to play their characters in ways that are thoroughly immoral and heinous in order to get the blood the characters' need. But it's got to be a lot of fun--and frightening if the gameplay were to be written out. But it like a tasteless joke could also work against creating a horror atmoshphere. But, then again, many horror movies have been made like that.

This post is inspired by by a post from the Combat Round thread, and my subsequent rant:


Quote:
Originally Posted by sladethesniper View Post
The problem with RPG's is that the "baseline" for "most" characters tends to be a highly trained, well armed, sociopath...think about it...there are a lot of games where characters are basically racially motivated mass murderers that specialize in home invasion...

Funny thing is that I was debating on creating a vampire rpg based on the characters acting along those lines (no emos). However, I believe that it could be unplayable. But, then again, somebody did create a game about sociopathic assassins that also could specialize in home invasion and theft of their victims:
AssassinX - The 24hour RPG of Bloody Murder
I wonder how many people do play it for a one shot--or even a campaign. And there's a game called Dog Town where the PCs are all criminals:
Dog Town: Core Rules

I don't care what White Wolf publishing or Ann Rice says, vampires are sociopathic mass murderers who specialize in home invasion! At least if you want your vampires to be scary. And I've long thought that the way most PCs are played in rpgs, they would make great vampires in a modern day setting. After all, you see vampires in modern day movies wearing nice modern day clothes, or even living in a modern day house...where do they get the money from?



I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I'm thinking about a game that would have the characters acting like the typical adventuring characters of any rpg. But have them be vampires who slaughter and steal from and do battle with people in a modern setting (or a "real world" historical setting). And they must do it in a way that mortal society doesn't find out about them. Mostly using guile, but if you want to play a character that just charges right in, you can do that, too. It seems like this game would be best for one-shots.

This is just something that's been bouncing around in my head for awhile, and I'd like to know if I'm onto some kind of good idea (or if this is a bad idea) and if there are any good suggestions for it? You can probably tell by this post that my ideas are a bit disjointed at this point about it.

I've watched two recent vampire movies that inspired me:
Amazon.com: 30 Days of Night: Josh Hartnett,Craig Hall,Melissa George: Movies & TV
Amazon.com: Mrs. Amworth: Magenta Brooks,Christy Sullivan,Daniel Ross,Jim Nalitz,Ben Murrie,Frank Sciurba: Movies & TV
And one oldie, but goodie: Amazon.com: The Norliss Tapes: Roy Thinnes,Don Porter,Angie Dickinson,Claude Akins,Michele Carey,Vonetta McGee,Hurd Hatfield,Bryan O'Byrne,Ed Gilbert,Robert Mandan,Jane Dulo,Bob Schott,George DiCenzo,Patrick M. Wright,Nick Dimitri,Stanley Adams,Dan C



A couple of stories I've recently read that inspired me:
http://www.horrormasters.com/Text/a0223.pdf This is the short story that the movie Mrs. Amworth is based on but the movie is very different in many ways than this story.

And: http://www.horrormasters.com/Text/a0322.pdf

As well as:The Vampyre, by John Polidori

I'm inspired by this story telling game: shock: social science fiction
But I want it to be a regular tabletop game using the BRP system.

I suspect that if done right the game could be really good at using ethical issues as a theme.

Anyway, I'm going to post this and hopefully your posts will help me hammer out what I really want to accomplish with this.

[Tywyll]

Eh... I fail to see how reveling in one's sociopathy = horror or scary.

The 'fear' in the Personal Horror style of game comes from seeing what lengths you'll go to and how far you'll fall when you do. That requires characters who care about what they are losing (or 'emo' I suppose by your definition).

Whether vampires are sociopaths depends on how their mythology is defined. Do they need to kill everytime they feed? Do they create a new vampire every time they eat? Etc, etc.

What you seem to be describing sounds like the Splatterpunk game, something like Nightlife, though even that has a humanity system (though one of the better one's I've seen). Interestingly, it's a percent system so could easily be ported/adjusted to BRP.

[fmitchell]

Originally Posted by Tywyll

Eh... I fail to see how reveling in one's sociopathy = horror or scary.

The 'fear' in the Personal Horror style of game comes from seeing what lengths you'll go to and how far you'll fall when you do. That requires characters who care about what they are losing (or 'emo' I suppose by your definition).

I'd be more tempted to turn it around: the PCs are humans battling soulless vampires, and they are the ones turning into sociopaths, at least as far as the cops and society at large is concerned. (Perhaps there's no objective evidence to tell a vampire corpse from a human corpse, so anyone who didn't see the creature "alive" would think its killers were delusional.) Your references take that tack, as far as I can tell.

Or, if you must have vampire PCs, make them no stronger/faster/more magical than normals ... and then send a squad of Slayers after them.

[soltakss]

Originally Posted by Dredj

I was thinking for some time about creating a vampire game that really is horrifying--but fun to play. Let's face it, most vampire games just aren't scary. I mean, how scary is some effeminate, homoerotic, emo--thoroughly Ann Rice inspired--vampire who's worried about becoming a monster, anyway? Is that even fun to play?

Agreed 100%. If I became a vampire, I wouldn't be the "oh no, what shall I do? How can I stop hurting people?" kind of vampire, oh no, I'd be the ravening monster striding through the ages and creating a horde of followers kind of vampire. Of course, I'd be staked through the heart pretty quickly.

Originally Posted by Dredj

And the others are just too fantastical. Or they're set in a gothic nightmare world, etc. Or, at least that's what it seems to someone who's not going to spend all his money looking at all that's out there, vampire-wise.

Vampires are gothic, that's pretty much a fact, even modern day ones have massive gothic hangovers.

Originally Posted by Dredj

I guess what I'm trying to get at is that I'm thinking about a game that would have the characters acting like the typical adventuring characters of any rpg. But have them be vampires who slaughter and steal from and do battle with people in a modern setting (or a "real world" historical setting). And they must do it in a way that mortal society doesn't find out about them. Mostly using guile, but if you want to play a character that just charges right in, you can do that, too. It seems like this game would be best for one-shots.

Sounds good to me. Any vampire character I played would also have a couple of guns, just to even things out a bit.He would also have some personally loyal henchmen who would protect him form those nasty little vampire hunters who come around during the daytime. He would move between the near-Arctic North and the near-Antarctic South, making sure he stayed awake as long as he could.

Originally Posted by Dredj

I've watched two recent vampire movies that inspired me:
Amazon.com: 30 Days of Night: Josh Hartnett,Craig Hall,Melissa George: Movies & TV
Amazon.com: Mrs. Amworth: Magenta Brooks,Christy Sullivan,Daniel Ross,Jim Nalitz,Ben Murrie,Frank Sciurba: Movies & TV
And one oldie, but goodie: Amazon.com: The Norliss Tapes: Roy Thinnes,Don Porter,Angie Dickinson,Claude Akins,Michele Carey,Vonetta McGee,Hurd Hatfield,Bryan O'Byrne,Ed Gilbert,Robert Mandan,Jane Dulo,Bob Schott,George DiCenzo,Patrick M. Wright,Nick Dimitri,Stanley Adams,Dan C

30 Days of Night was OK, but didn't really grab me that much.

If you want some good modernp-day vampire films with a lot of atmoshere then watch Innocent Blood, Lost Boys and Near Dark. Even John Carpenter's Vampires is pretty good from a vampire-hunting point of view.

Originally Posted by Dredj

I suspect that if done right the game could be really good at using ethical issues as a theme.

It could, but where's the fun in that?

Playing vampire hunters and having to kill a small vampire child is an ethical dilemma that works across many types of game. Choosing between genocide and letting monsters live is another.

But, I prefer to leave ethical issues out of games as they've always made my gaming groups uncomfortable in the past and we like our games to be fun.

Back to vampires. I have thought for a long time there are 2 kinds of vampires - nobles and thugs. The nobles are the aristocratic ones that have followers, artistic tastes, wear capes and live in expensive coffins. Thugs are the ones who would rip you apart just because they can, who make their friends immortal and live for the moment. Thugs die quickly, nobles live for centuries.

[soltakss]

Oh, and if you are using BRP/RQ rules for vampuires then you'll need to add to them quite a bit.

They need to have the "cannot enter a house unless invited" restriction, need a reason to have to drink blood, need more psychic/magical abilities, can't move around in sunlight/daytime, need to be damaged by sunlight and so on.

Also, vampires should become stronger/more powerful the older they get and the more blood they drink.

[Dredj]

Thanks for the replies. This was just some brainstorming I was doing. Doesn't look like it will get off the ground. It seems vampires have been done to death, anyway. I just wanted to make them anti-romantic, and something that wouldn't come across as just another D20 type class.

As far as reveling in one's sociopathy, that is what all the groups I've played with and seen playing have done. (Btw, the groups I've played with are far from being sociopaths--but I chose not to play with a group that actually might have been). It's kind of that mindset that I'm catering to. (D&D and AD&D always seemed like they were about "might equals right" to me, anyway). It's the same reason people play Grand Theft Auto video games; it's a release of sorts. However, looking at the BRP line, excluding CoC, it seems that the game makers for this system cater heavily to the heroic fantasy role playing crowd. Actually, CoC is kind of heroic, now that I think of it.

As far as vampire movies go, I forgot about the Lost Boys. Don't know how, I had to have seen it about a thousand times over the years. I didn't think 30 Days of Night was all that great, either. It's more of the types of vampires I'm going for. I picked the movies I did because they are really fresh in my head.

When I'm talking about Gothic settings, I'm talking about Ravenloft and things like that. Places were everyone expects to encounter a vampire any given day--or night. I would like my setting to be more in the "real" world, where most people don't believe in vampires. And the vampires prefer to keep it that way.

Anyway, like I said, this was just stuff bumping around in my head for awhile, and wanted to know what other people's take on it was.

As far as vampires having weaknesses dealing with sunlight and such, I was debating on leaving it up to the people who play the game as to what weaknesses the vampires have. But FUDGE Vampires beat me to that:
RPGNow.com - ComStar Games - Fudge Horror: Vampires
The only stipulation I would've made was to make the vampires weak enough that any given healthy, adult mortal could be a major threat to them.

[frogspawner]

Originally Posted by Dredj

D&D and AD&D always seemed like they were about "might equals right" to me, anyway... However, looking at the BRP line... it seems that the game makers for this system cater heavily to the heroic fantasy role playing crowd.

Absolutely. This difference in attitude is fundamental to the systems and is clear from the way they handle experience and, particularly, hit points.

As I often say when players complain about how few HPs they get: Do you want to be a Bully or Hero?

[threedeesix]

Originally Posted by soltakss

Oh, and if you are using BRP/RQ rules for vampuires then you'll need to add to them quite a bit.

They need to have the "cannot enter a house unless invited" restriction, need a reason to have to drink blood, need more psychic/magical abilities, can't move around in sunlight/daytime, need to be damaged by sunlight and so on.

Those are all in the new BRP vampire write-up.

Rodney Leary

[soltakss]

Originally Posted by Dredj

Thanks for the replies. This was just some brainstorming I was doing. Doesn't look like it will get off the ground. It seems vampires have been done to death, anyway. I just wanted to make them anti-romantic, and something that wouldn't come across as just another D20 type class.

How can vampires be done to death? They are probably the best NPC villain type and can be used in any setting without a problem.

But, brainstorming is always good.

Originally Posted by Dredj

As far as reveling in one's sociopathy, that is what all the groups I've played with and seen playing have done. (Btw, the groups I've played with are far from being sociopaths--but I chose not to play with a group that actually might have been). It's kind of that mindset that I'm catering to. (D&D and AD&D always seemed like they were about "might equals right" to me, anyway). It's the same reason people play Grand Theft Auto video games; it's a release of sorts. However, looking at the BRP line, excluding CoC, it seems that the game makers for this system cater heavily to the heroic fantasy role playing crowd. Actually, CoC is kind of heroic, now that I think of it.

If CoC were a monster-hunting game then I'd enjoy it a lot more than the current mythos/sanity-crushing game.

Originally Posted by Dredj

As far as vampire movies go, I forgot about the Lost Boys. Don't know how, I had to have seen it about a thousand times over the years. I didn't think 30 Days of Night was all that great, either. It's more of the types of vampires I'm going for. I picked the movies I did because they are really fresh in my head.

Sure. There are lots of vampire films that fade away into the background. Even films such as Blade are OK, they have a vampire mythos but just make them into CGI supermen which is a bit tiring after a while.

Originally Posted by Dredj

When I'm talking about Gothic settings, I'm talking about Ravenloft and things like that. Places were everyone expects to encounter a vampire any given day--or night. I would like my setting to be more in the "real" world, where most people don't believe in vampires. And the vampires prefer to keep it that way.

I've never heard of Ravenloft and having looked it up on google it doesn't sound particularly good. The best book I've read about vampires ruling the world is The Empire of Fear by Brian Stableford which has a vampire ruling class being brought down by a hero. It's gothic in places but is very normal in others.

Originally Posted by Dredj

Anyway, like I said, this was just stuff bumping around in my head for awhile, and wanted to know what other people's take on it was.

One of the things I 'll never stop talking about/discussing is vampires, so I think it's a great topic.

Originally Posted by Dredj

The only stipulation I would've made was to make the vampires weak enough that any given healthy, adult mortal could be a major threat to them.

Weak vampires that a normal healthy mortal could take? No way. Vampires should be stronger than mortals, quicker than mortals and should not consider a normal mortal a threat, except in daytime.

Most vampire films/stories/myths have vampires as being physically impressive with particular weaknesses. Heroes traditionally kill vampires by exploiting those weaknesses or by ganging up on them.

I'm all for strong vampires. The film Monster Club has some nice scenes, particularly the one where Dracula wades through a number of attacking police with consumate ease.

Vampires suffering blood-starvation might be weak, depending on their age.

[soltakss]

Originally Posted by soltakss

Oh, and if you are using BRP/RQ rules for vampires then you'll need to add to them quite a bit.

They need to have the "cannot enter a house unless invited" restriction, need a reason to have to drink blood, need more psychic/magical abilities, can't move around in sunlight/daytime, need to be damaged by sunlight and so on.

Also, vampires should become stronger/more powerful the older they get and the more blood they drink.

I'd give Vampires a VAM Characteristic that starts at 3D6 and increases with age (maybe 1 per 100 years) and the number of victims the vampire drinks blood (maybe 1 per 100 victims).

What would VAM do? It would add to the Vampires Strength roll, perhaps even add to the Vampire's STR or CON. Vampires would have to roll their VAMx5% (Vampire Roll) to do Vampiric things such as changing form. Vampires can last their VAM in days without feeding, but must succeed in a Vampire Roll or lose their VAM in Fatigue Points.

That makes ancient vampires very powerful as they would have a very high VAM score.