'Balancing' Races?

[Tywyll]

I know that BRP has never been particularly 'balanced' when it comes to races that aren't human. I think that, as a primarily simulationist system, this is generally fine. However, there is a small part of me that worries about player's feeling disadvantaged or what not for playing humans.

Has anyone ever tried to do anything to balance the races a bit? I'm mainly looking at fantasy style games, and I'm not talking about races like trolls, but more like elves, dwarves, Melniboneans, etc vs humans.

I've been toying with a few ideas to make humans more interesting:
1) If I use Hero Points from MRQ allow Human PCs an extra HP each game to represent their drive.
2) Pick a few skills for which they get a +X (10?) to all experience rolls to represents human haste and focus.
3) Possibly more skill points at start (though I don't really like this option).

[rust]

I have no problem with "unbalanced" races, provided the differences are a
plausible part of the setting.
If I wanted to "balance" races, I would most probably not try to do it with
the rules system. I would look for balancing factors within the setting, for
example "Elves are disliked by Humans, and are treated accordingly", and
would introduce that kind of "balancing" into the way I portray the setting.

[Tywyll]

Originally Posted by rust

I have no problem with "unbalanced" races, provided the differences are a
plausible part of the setting.
If I wanted to "balance" races, I would most probably not try to do it with
the rules system. I would look for balancing factors within the setting, for
example "Elves are disliked by Humans, and are treated accordingly", and
would introduce that kind of "balancing" into the way I portray the setting.

Personally, I find that balance through role play only goes so far... I mean, look at Dark Elves from 2nd Ed D&D... they were way more powerful than any other race and the only 'balance' really was roleplay restrictions, but if you get a group of people who trust you, those sort of things don't matter in the wilderness very much. It's widely regarded as one of the failings of Advanced D&D that they went by that method.

The other problem is that the lack of balance is mechanical. Elves, for example, don't have RP advantages as much as mechanical ones. so seeking balance out with that doesn't really always work, at least for me.

Ok, so you charge the elf more for his stuff in town, or he get's snubbed by the locals. So he holes up in the room, or in the wilderness outside, and lets his human buddies who have learned to trust him, deal with buying his gear or other such things. Sure, when he is constantly getting picked on by the town guard, its a hassle, but there are ways around it.

And it also only works if that is the setting. My campaign world human's treat Dwarves with respect, but their stats are generally much better than humans, so that doesn't work.

[frogspawner]

If you're interested in balance, you'll probably be using some sort of points-buy system (though maybe only for skills). So to balance the races as well, just make them also cost some of those points, proportional to the benefits of the race. Easy, right?

[Tywyll]

I didn't know there were other creation methods (for skills) in BRP that weren't point buy.

Anyway, in theory, yes, this is true. The question is the specifics. How valuable is 4d6 in a stat versus 3d6? What about things like nightvision (I'm imagining the super power section might help me out there)?

Also, I'm very hesitant to remove skill points for special abilities. In theory it works fine, but it seems odd that 'Elder Races' that live longer than humans would be less skilled than they are.

I'd probably simply be more restrictive on them, which is to say that starting skills might get spent in specific ways to model culture and upbringing, while humans have more latitude.

That still doesn't seem entirely to solve the issue.

So, what would be wrong with giving humans an advantage or extra Hero Points?

[rust]

Originally Posted by Tywyll

So, what would be wrong with giving humans an advantage or extra Hero Points?

Nothing at all. I know several games where Humans get such an advantage,
including D&D 3.0 and LotR, and it always seemed to work well.

[Triff]

Originally Posted by Tywyll

Also, I'm very hesitant to remove skill points for special abilities. In theory it works fine, but it seems odd that 'Elder Races' that live longer than humans would be less skilled than they are.

The Elder Races live longer, that's true. They don't necessarily start adventuring at a later age though. You can easily say to those players who wants to play non-humans that htey have to start with younger characters to balance out their superior stats. Or you can say their childhood is longer, where they are sheltered and primarily learn skills such as plant lore, mineral lore and the like, while humans learn more adventure-related skills from a lower age.

SGL.

[soltakss]

Balancing races isn't really a problem.

Characteristics are individual to particular species, so trolls are going to be bigger than dwarves, dwarves are stronger than elves, elves are cleverer than trolls and so on. That's a fact and shouldn't be an issue.

Inherent powers aren't a problem either. Some species can do things naturally, some can't. Glorantha trolls use Darksense, other creature can see in the dark, others can swim or breathe underwater, others can fly. This isn't a problem either. Don't even try and balance these out otherwise you cripple the original concept of the species.

The main problematic area is that of skill generation. There are several approaches to this.

If you say that people get more skilled over the years through experience then the longer-lived species get a massive advantage. Anything living for more than a couple of hundred years are super-skilled with most skills well over 100%.

If you say that PCs are rolled up at a certain level then you can work out the skills but then have the problem of justifying the skill level. You are going to get the player who asks why his 200 year old Melnibonean is the same skill level as a 30 year old human. So, you have to be realistic about things and perhaps give longer-lived PCs a higher starting level. Or say that longer-lived species take longer to learn things as they don't have the same focus as shorter-lived species.

Also, don't forget that some species have specialist abilities that they will be better at. So, Melniboneans will be naturally good at magic and an Expert Magic User will be younger than an equivalent human Expert.

So, all in all, I wouldn't bother too much about balancing species. If players complain then tell them that some races are better than others. If everyone become an elf then show them that elves have weaknesses.

Power gamers will always pick the most advantaged species, other roleplayers may well choose interesting species.

[Ebonstorm]

Given my recent exploration into creating alien characters with BRP, it is safe to say that game balance will be the province of the Gamemaster, not the game system. It is unrealistic in games whose power scales are greater than Epic or Superhuman to even worry about balancing the game. There are sufficient powers, mutations and other abilities that the most effective means of balancing the game will be HOW the GM deals with the players and their circumstances, and less on what the players start the game with.

The basic rule always applies: These rules are a guideline for the development of characters in a roleplaying setting. The GM has the final say as to what appears in his game. End of Story. So if a player decides that he wants to create something that defies the spirit of the game that the GM is creating, then the GM has to evoke his right to deny said character construct until it resembles something the GM wants to be dealing with in his game.

Balance is not real when you get players who can do incredible and fantastic things without effort. The Spirit of the Game is what matters most. Can everyone have fun without anyone taking too much of the spotlight? If not, then something went wrong somewhere...

[Tywyll]

Originally Posted by soltakss

Balancing races isn't really a problem.

I don't agree.

Characteristics are individual to particular species, so trolls are going to be bigger than dwarves, dwarves are stronger than elves, elves are cleverer than trolls and so on. That's a fact and shouldn't be an issue.

Sure it should, if there is no reason to play humans, then no one will.

Inherent powers aren't a problem either. Some species can do things naturally, some can't. Glorantha trolls use Darksense, other creature can see in the dark, others can swim or breathe underwater, others can fly. This isn't a problem either. Don't even try and balance these out otherwise you cripple the original concept of the species.

If a race has all sorts of advantages, and few to no disadvantages, then why shouldn't you try to balance things out?

If you say that PCs are rolled up at a certain level then you can work out the skills but then have the problem of justifying the skill level. You are going to get the player who asks why his 200 year old Melnibonean is the same skill level as a 30 year old human. So, you have to be realistic about things and perhaps give longer-lived PCs a higher starting level. Or say that longer-lived species take longer to learn things as they don't have the same focus as shorter-lived species.

That's possible, the question becomes: what is a reasonable cost/balance?

So, all in all, I wouldn't bother too much about balancing species. If players complain then tell them that some races are better than others. If everyone become an elf then show them that elves have weaknesses.

What are those weaknesses? Back in the day, playing d&d and ad&d, almost no one played humans, because there was nothing interesting or compensating for them to compare to the abilities/cool factor of the non-human races.

Power gamers will always pick the most advantaged species, other roleplayers may well choose interesting species.

Luckily, I only have one power gamer in my group. However, he's also a good roleplayer. That's not my concern, I don't want players feeling cheated later on in play when they want to play a concept but someone who's simialr non-human concept simply always outshines them (like a Melnibonean in just about any SB game, etc, etc).