Alternative Wizardry Systems

[soltakss]

Originally Posted by Tywyll

Though I can't speak for the writer, to me it is because the idea of the God giving you a specific spell is kind of silly.

Unless I've misunderstood you completely, which is quite likely, this really only applies to an all-powerful god. If you have a polytheistic model then each god has his own sphere of influence and grants spells according to his own powers. So, a rain god frants rainmaking spells, a wargod grants war magic and a darkness god grants darkness magic.

Also, if you go to a pilgramage to a certain specific holy place then you will probably get the spell associated with that holy place. So, you might get a spell to cure the Black Pox at a particular healing shrine where a goddess first cured the Black Pox.

Originally Posted by Tywyll

If God's work their miracles through you than they ought to be able to use what is best in a specific situation, rather than what the priest thinks he might need a week from now.

Possibly. I don't have a problem with that as a concept. I'd still restrict spells according to the function of the deity, though, otherwise you get the same problem as AD&D used to have where all the clerics had the same spells regardless of the deities they worshipped.

Originally Posted by Tywyll

That's just me though. I'd prefer that Pow dedicated to the God becomes a pool of points from which they can draw (with GM's approval) spells from the God as they need them. it also keeps divine magic from being a definable resource (yes your god can heal, but for some reason, when you try to heal that wounded person, they don't grant you that ability... perhaps its in the god's interest that that person suffers, perhaps you've failed the god and are being punished, that's up to you to answer in the dark tea time of your soul).

That sounds fine to me.

[Tywyll]

Originally Posted by soltakss

Unless I've misunderstood you completely, which is quite likely, this really only applies to an all-powerful god. If you have a polytheistic model then each god has his own sphere of influence and grants spells according to his own powers. So, a rain god frants rainmaking spells, a wargod grants war magic and a darkness god grants darkness magic.

Yeah that wasn't what I was getting at. Yes, the kind of god you worship should dictate the kinds of magic you get. What shouldn't happen (in my opinion) is that you learn specific spells, especially in advance. Priests preying ahead of time, in a vancian or quasi-vancian system (which I consider RQ Divine Magic to be) just doesn't seem like it models a good view of magic gifted from on high.

Also, if you go to a pilgramage to a certain specific holy place then you will probably get the spell associated with that holy place. So, you might get a spell to cure the Black Pox at a particular healing shrine where a goddess first cured the Black Pox.

Only if you view the god's power as being limited to places like that. I think a different way to handle it would be:
a) You prove yourself worthy of receiving the ability to wield the blessing by journeying to a forgotten shrine and reclaiming it for the faith.
b) You find a relic hidden at such a shrine lost to the faith
c) The affliction is so potent only a place dedicated to your god can handle enough power for them to remove the pox.

All of these things maintain the element of the quest or the adventure, without leaving the PC the one 'in charge' of the ability.

Possibly. I don't have a problem with that as a concept. I'd still restrict spells according to the function of the deity, though, otherwise you get the same problem as AD&D used to have where all the clerics had the same spells regardless of the deities they worshipped.

I personally preferred the Sphere system of 2nd Ed AD&D, as that dealt with the magic spread amongst various faiths quite well.

[peterb]

Originally Posted by tzunder

I think a good d20 magic to BRP conversion set (or sets) is crucial. These schema look like good broadbrush starters.

I agree. Even if some or even the major part of the spells, creatures and items that have been published for the d20 system would seem out-of-line to hardcore BRP/d100 gamers, converting them or at least by providing guidelines for conversion would greatly increase the appeal of BRP to gamers having a d20 background. If you are thinking of moving from d20 to BRP and has a great deal of d20 material, being unable to use that material would be quite some barrier. If we could help with this step we would do our community a service and existing BRP players would also benefit from being able to more easily use d20 material. I do, of course, understand that such conversion projects would not be everyone's cup-of-tea.

[peterb]

First of all I should point out that these bare bone formulas have not been used in play. They are the first iteration in an attempt to reach a set of algorithms for standardizing the conversion of d20 spells to the d100-system. They are also a very rough set of rules for a type or arcane and divine magic that would seem familiar to a user of the d20 system and still work well within the d100 framework.

Originally Posted by frogspawner

I prefer the simplicity of MP Cost = Spell Level best, and 1 MP per expansion.

I have no problem with a spell cost formula of 1 mp / d20 spell level + 1 mp per extension, as such. I was just worried that wizards wouldn't be able to do any decent manipulations, given that I want to limit the amount of manipulation a wizard can do with any given spell. I might worry to much.

Originally Posted by frogspawner

Why do Mages only have more complex formulae?

The skill system (my method 1) was really only intended for arcane magic. When tinkering with the second system I realised I could link in divine magic into it. The second system is (partly) based on the idea that a wizards ability to manipulate magic increases with skill. That's nothing strange really. I wanted to simulate this increase in skill but also to avoid having to deduct mp:s when the mage became better. So instead I had wizards start with a low mp pool, simulating that at low skill levels the mage must spend, relatively speaking, more energy on each spell. When the magic-user increases his skills the relative cost decreases, the wizard becomes more resource effective.

A similar system has been implemented by Green Ronin in their publication “True Sorcery”.

Since divine magic is “programmed” into the priest, he really does not understand the spell he just, somehow, knows that if he focus on an aspect of his god he can bring forth a supernatural effect. The priest's ability to do this does not increase with skill, since no skill is used.

Originally Posted by frogspawner

How do you decide what the default effect for d20 spell is?

The default effect is based on the spells description. Increasing the “caster level” is an extension and costs 1 mp per level. Some spells have bonus effects based on character level. Barkskin is an example. In such cases I would use level x 10% and allow the bonus effect at those skill levels. I use 10 as a multiplier instead of 5 because having bonus effects already at a skill level of say 30% is a bit low, IMO.

Originally Posted by frogspawner

Have you found these moderate the damage of d20-style spells acceptably?

Not really. That's still a problem. One possible solution is to downgrade all dices one step. That is d6's becomes d5's, d4's d3's etc. The maximum amount of damage is also a problem. Limiting the amount of mp manipulated might be one way of dealing with that problem.

Originally Posted by frogspawner

Do you use just a normal POW v POW for saving throws?

Yes. That was my intention. I don't really like the skill based approach to resistances used by MRQ, although I can see that it has some merit in some situations.

Originally Posted by frogspawner

The skill-per-school is good, too - but do you use any other magic related skills for mages?

No I don't plan to do that. In any case none that would increase the chance of casting a spell or increase the mp pool. I do see uses for skills such as Knowledge [arcane lore] and such, for example when researching new spells or when analysing magic items or magical effects.


/Peter

[Tywyll]

Originally Posted by peterb

I have no problem with a spell cost formula of 1 mp / d20 spell level + 1 mp per extension, as such. I was just worried that wizards wouldn't be able to do any decent manipulations, given that I want to limit the amount of manipulation a wizard can do with any given spell. I might worry to much.

Unless you do something to dramatically increase the Wizard's MP, using that formula will make Wizards even weaker than their d&d counterparts, which is to say that they'll start being able to cast several spells a day, and each time they gain access to new spell levels, their number of spells drops dramatically.

[peterb]

Originally Posted by Tywyll

Unless you do something to dramatically increase the Wizard's MP, using that formula will make Wizards even weaker than their d&d counterparts, which is to say that they'll start being able to cast several spells a day, and each time they gain access to new spell levels, their number of spells drops dramatically.

Well, the average cost of the average spirit magic spell is probably 1.5 mp. A RQ 3 shaman could only cast some 10 spells a day... and as the average sorcery spell costs quite some mp in RQ3 (due too intensity, range and duration manipulation) a sorcerer would only be able to cast two or three spells a day...

The solution is mp storing devices, mp spirits and self-powered magic devices. Also a mage in d100 needs to use magic in other ways, as a information seeking device, to improve defences and so on. Sorcery and the like really takes to much time to cast to be very valuable in combat, in such situation spirit magic rules (and you don't need many of those spells).

Sure, one could device means to deal with the problem. One way would be to use Fatigue Points instead of mp, possibly combined with a "spell buffer" that increases with skill. Assume that a mage would be allowed STR + CON FP which he could use to cast spells and that he could add a "buffer" equal to (sum of all magic skills / 10) rounded up that he could spend before tapping into his own strength reservoir. Of course you'll have to increase the cost of the spells by about x 5. But as you may recall FP are recovered faster than MP... Of course for every 10 FP the mage would loose 10 percentiles in all skills. You could also device a spell that allowed the mage to recover 5 FP per MP or 15 FP per point of permanent POW. In a ditch the mage could sacrifice MP and even POW to recover his breath.

/Peter

[Tywyll]

Originally Posted by peterb

Well, the average cost of the average spirit magic spell is probably 1.5 mp. A RQ 3 shaman could only cast some 10 spells a day... and as the average sorcery spell costs quite some mp in RQ3 (due too intensity, range and duration manipulation) a sorcerer would only be able to cast two or three spells a day...

The solution is mp storing devices, mp spirits and self-powered magic devices. Also a mage in d100 needs to use magic in other ways, as a information seeking device, to improve defences and so on. Sorcery and the like really takes to much time to cast to be very valuable in combat, in such situation spirit magic rules (and you don't need many of those spells).

Those solutions don't really work if you are trying to model d20 style casting. I think either a)granting more MP (INt+Pow?) or b)granting something like the buffer idea, +1 per 10% in casting skill would be the way. Also something like the Ease Sorcery skill might help.

[peterb]

As a response to the comments above, I wrote this bare bone alternative wizardry system:

Fatigue and spell buffer

• Each school of magic is a separate skill.
• Spells need not be memorized.
• Spells can be cast from books, at double the casting time.
• Each spell has a difficulty rating of 0 to 45 which is subtracted from the school skill level (d20 spell level x 5).
• Casting a spell is tiring. Each spell has a FP cost equal to its difficulty rating. Spells with DR 0 costs 1 FP to cast.
• Spells can be manipulated by expending more fatigue points. Each expansion of area, range, duration or additional targets or missiles costs 5 fatigue points each. Example: by default the spell magic missile creates one magic missile, adding three extra missiles costs 15 additional fatigue points, for a total cost of 20 FP.
• As the mage improves her skills she will become less fatigued by casting spells. This improved ability to manipulate magic energy is represented by a Spell Buffer. A wizard’s Spell Buffer is equal to one tenth of her combined magic skill values (rounded to the nearest whole number). A wizard with a total of 93 points in three skills thus has a Spell Buffer of 9 points. The Spell Buffer can be only used instead of FP to fuel spells. The mage recovers the buffer at the same rate as she recovers FP.
• A wizard can only manipulate an amount of fatigue points equal to half her school skill level, drop the reminder, at any given time. Thus a wizard with a skill of 63 can only manipulate a maximum of 30 fatigue points at any given time. She couldn’t expand a fireball (a 15 FP spell) more than 15 points and she couldn’t cast a spell with a higher DR than 30 (a 6th level spell in d20 terms), in effect a wizard cannot cast spells with a d20 spell level higher than the 10s digit of his spell school skill.
• Expanding fatigue points to rapidly could be dangerous as the wizard runs the risk of exhausting himself, possibly even killing himself.
• Learning a spell is a two week task that has a chance of success equal to school skill – difficulty rating. A wizard with 55% skill would need to roll 40 or lower to learn the spell fireball (DR 15). A wizard may add a week to his studies and increase his chance of success by the average of his INT and POW (rounded to the nearest whole number) percentiles. Our wizard, with INT 14 and POW 15, could thus add 14 percentiles to his chance of learning the fireball spell.

[frogspawner]

To clarify, a 15fp Magic Missile (i.e. expanded twice) would do 3 dice of damage, but a 15fp Fireball (not expanded) would do 1 die?

Also, I'd suggest that school-skills should all contribute individually to the Spell Buffer, so you don't have to worry about the odd %'s, only when any skill crosses a 10% barrier.

[soltakss]

The trouble with using D20 magic in a BRPish environment is that you have to look at the theory behind the magic first and they aren't always compatible.

D20 is resolutely level based, BRP is resolutely not level based.

This means that D20 magicians get spells of differing power the further they get in their character class. Some spells are not available to lower level magicians and other become more powerful the higher level the magician.

BRP Magic, on the other hand, is based on personal power or personal magical rfesources. So, you have skills that control, how good you are magically and PPs that determine how much oomph you have to put behind the spell.

It is difficult to convert one to the other.

To use D20 magic effectively you have to have levels, which can be used in BRP games by having different degrees of membership of a particular magical organisation. So, you have Lay Member/Initiate/RuneLevel in RQ, there's no particular reason why a certain order doesn't have Member/Master/GrandMaster or whatever series of levels you want. So, levels aren't really an issue.

A big issue with D20 spells are that the higher level ones are incredibly powerful. They can seriously unbalance a game. But that is a problem for the GM.

Another issue is that D20 magicians can only store a certain number of spells and can only cast a certain number of spells per day, and both limitations are defined by level. That is against many of the BRP values. Is there a way around it? Almost certainly. Do I know the way? Nope.

But, I'd love to see a conversion of OGL D20 Spells to a D100-style system. Since BRP is definitely and absolutely not OGL then you can't convert them to BRP. You'd have to look at another D100 system that is OGL-based. I'm trying to think of one, it's on the tip of my tongue ....