Gurps magic

[peterb]

Just borrowed a copy of Gurps magic from a friend and it seems incredibly easy to adapt to BRP. They use power points which translates directly to mp. Each spell is a skill, but I guess you could use school skills as well. They use a kind of curriculum approach, the mage have to know the prerequisite spells before being able to learn a spell. For example fireball requires that the mage knows create fire and shape fire.

I know this might not be everyone's cup-of-tea but some people might find it a useful alternative to the existing RQ (III) systems and the "new" BRP systems. An added bonus is that the book is available as a PDF, from which one can copy and paste as much as one pleases... I'm seriously considering adding this to my collection.

There's a fan created list of all spells, with just the basic data at: GURPS Resources

[Tywyll]

Originally Posted by peterb

Just borrowed a copy of Gurps magic from a friend and it seems incredibly easy to adapt to BRP. They use power points which translates directly to mp. Each spell is a skill, but I guess you could use school skills as well. They use a kind of curriculum approach, the mage have to know the prerequisite spells before being able to learn a spell. For example fireball requires that the mage knows create fire and shape fire.

I know this might not be everyone's cup-of-tea but some people might find it a useful alternative to the existing RQ (III) systems and the "new" BRP systems. An added bonus is that the book is available as a PDF, from which one can copy and paste as much as one pleases... I'm seriously considering adding this to my collection.

There's a fan created list of all spells, with just the basic data at: GURPS Resources

If you end up writing up any specific rules for this, I'd be interested in viewing them.

[peterb]

Originally Posted by Tywyll

If you end up writing up any specific rules for this, I'd be interested in viewing them.

Well as far as I can see there are are very few modifications you need to do.

1) Magery. In Gurps magic only those with special talent can deal with complex spells. Magery comes in levels, the recommendation is to have no more than four levels in a standard fantasy setting. I would suggest a rule that states that people with less than POW 15 has no magery. At POW 15 you get Magery 1, at POW 17 you'll have Magery 2 and so on up to POW 23 and Magery 5.

2) Learning Spells. Since the system really only works with skills per spell you'll need to have a fairly high skill base. I would suggest a base of 30 for ordinary spells and a base of 15 for very hard (difficult) spells. Allow the character to add 5 percentiles per point of Magery to the base.

3) Spell requirements. You need to know a required spell. I would rule that once you have skill level 40 in a spell then you understand it good enough so that you could learn spells that depend on it.

4) Measurements. Gurps uses imperial measures. There are not that many of those in the book though. Distances are measured in hexes which is equal to one yard, so it could easily be converted to one hex = one meter. The few other instances of imperial measures are easily dealt with.

5) Modifiers. Modifiers are given as bonuses or penalties of one or more points (Gurps uses skill levels from 1 and up). Multiply by 5 to get the equivalent BRP modifier.

6) Skills. There's really only one skill that needs to be converted: Innate attack. It's the ability to target missile spells and other supernatural powers at targets at a distance.

7) Range. Spells are divided into classes or broad types. Missile spells will need some kind of range rule instead of the Gurps one. I would suggest that a mage could fire a missile up to MP * 5 meters with no penalty. Above that his Innate Attack skill would be halved.

8) Casting Time is given in seconds, use SR instead.

9) Durations are given in minutes etc. and need not be modified.

10) Resistance. Spells are resisted using attributes, as given in the spell descriptions. Just use CON for HT, POW for WILL and so on. You could download GURPS Lite to get the basics of the system to help with this conversion.

11) Damage. I would suggest ruling that spells that deal damage does 1d6 points of damage per power point used.

There's also a chapter on how to build magic items. That seems to be easy to integrate with BRP, or you could use the rules from RQ or MRQ.

That's it really.

[Tywyll]

Originally Posted by peterb

Well as far as I can see there are are very few modifications you need to do.

1) Magery. In Gurps magic only those with special talent can deal with complex spells. Magery comes in levels, the recommendation is to have no more than four levels in a standard fantasy setting. I would suggest a rule that states that people with less than POW 15 has no magery. At POW 15 you get Magery 1, at POW 17 you'll have Magery 2 and so on up to POW 23 and Magery 5.

2) Learning Spells. Since the system really only works with skills per spell you'll need to have a fairly high skill base. I would suggest a base of 30 for ordinary spells and a base of 15 for very hard (difficult) spells. Allow the character to add 5 percentiles per point of Magery to the base.

3) Spell requirements. You need to know a required spell. I would rule that once you have skill level 40 in a spell then you understand it good enough so that you could learn spells that depend on it.

4) Measurements. Gurps uses imperial measures. There are not that many of those in the book though. Distances are measured in hexes which is equal to one yard, so it could easily be converted to one hex = one meter. The few other instances of imperial measures are easily dealt with.

5) Modifiers. Modifiers are given as bonuses or penalties of one or more points (Gurps uses skill levels from 1 and up). Multiply by 5 to get the equivalent BRP modifier.

6) Skills. There's really only one skill that needs to be converted: Innate attack. It's the ability to target missile spells and other supernatural powers at targets at a distance.

7) Range. Spells are divided into classes or broad types. Missile spells will need some kind of range rule instead of the Gurps one. I would suggest that a mage could fire a missile up to MP * 5 meters with no penalty. Above that his Innate Attack skill would be halved.

8) Casting Time is given in seconds, use SR instead.

9) Durations are given in minutes etc. and need not be modified.

10) Resistance. Spells are resisted using attributes, as given in the spell descriptions. Just use CON for HT, POW for WILL and so on. You could download GURPS Lite to get the basics of the system to help with this conversion.

11) Damage. I would suggest ruling that spells that deal damage does 1d6 points of damage per power point used.

There's also a chapter on how to build magic items. That seems to be easy to integrate with BRP, or you could use the rules from RQ or MRQ.

That's it really.

That's pretty cool. Perhaps starting skill in a spell could be different for hard spells and VHard spells. Though, the next question is: how do you learn them at character creation? Can you just put 1% into them and then get them at 30%+1%+Magic Category+Magery?

How would you handle the spell mastering ability (i.e. the fact that at certain higher skill levels you stop needing to use gestures and such, and the spells cost less)?

Would you leave the duration as they are in Gurps (baring in mind that Fatique recovers faster than MP) or would you upgrade the durations? Or would you simply allow MP of characters using this system to recover more quickly?

Cheers!

[peterb]

Originally Posted by Tywyll

That's pretty cool. Perhaps starting skill in a spell could be different for hard spells and VHard spells. Though, the next question is: how do you learn them at character creation? Can you just put 1% into them and then get them at 30%+1%+Magic Category+Magery?

Well, that would seem natural. That's how all other skills work. Perhaps one needs to consider increasing the "known spell" level to 50%. Since you must know all required spells, you would have to spend quite a bit of points just to get for example fireball. You would need a minimum of POW 15 plus 3 other specified spells to be able to learn fireball. The average cost would probably be around 30 points.

Originally Posted by Tywyll

How would you handle the spell mastering ability (i.e. the fact that at certain higher skill levels you stop needing to use gestures and such, and the spells cost less)?

I would convert the gestures rules to penalties for not using a lot of gestures and voice:
Omitting the foot movements: -10 percentiles
Gestures with only one hand: -10 percentiles
no hand gestures at all: -20 percentiles
Softly spoken incantations: -10 percentiles
no incantation: -20 percentiles

I would keep the lower casting costs, but I'll use MP not FP.

Originally Posted by Tywyll

Would you leave the duration as they are in Gurps (baring in mind that Fatique recovers faster than MP) or would you upgrade the durations? Or would you simply allow MP of characters using this system to recover more quickly?

I would use MP to fuel spells. So I would leave durations as they are, maintaining a spell will eat up a mage's MP really fast...

In Gurps magic it's easier to create MP storage items compared to RQ. It's in fact very much like the Staff rules from Magic World (which I understand are included in the new BRP book).

[Tywyll]

Originally Posted by peterb

Well, that would seem natural. That's how all other skills work. Perhaps one needs to consider increasing the "known spell" level to 50%. Since you must know all required spells, you would have to spend quite a bit of points just to get for example fireball. You would need a minimum of POW 15 plus 3 other specified spells to be able to learn fireball. The average cost would probably be around 30 points.

Actually, it's a bit wonky since technically skills that are a 0% are just that, and you have to buy them from there. Spells would, assumedly, start at 0 unless you bought them, at which they become 30% or whatever the new base is.

You could perhaps do something like the MRQ version, wherein you spend 10 skill points at which you gain the skill at INT+POW, and VHard Spells at (Int+Pow)/2. Then add Magery perhaps?

I would convert the gestures rules to penalties for not using a lot of gestures and voice:
Omitting the foot movements: -10 percentiles
Gestures with only one hand: -10 percentiles
no hand gestures at all: -20 percentiles
Softly spoken incantations: -10 percentiles
no incantation: -20 percentiles

I would keep the lower casting costs, but I'll use MP not FP.

At what point would you become immune to those penalties though? As I understand it, you simply can't cast those spells without doing those gestures and rituals, until a certain level of skill at which point you lose those requirements, but you aren't able to cast without the rituals. Or would you simply use the limitations instead?

Lower casting cost? The spells cost seems about the same between the two systems. Sometimes mush more (Protection costing 2xpt of protection and only lasting a minute!).

I would use MP to fuel spells. So I would leave durations as they are, maintaining a spell will eat up a mage's MP really fast...

That doesn't seem particularly fair to the casters, unless you are keeping the rules that at a certain level of skill you can reduce the maintenance cost of a spell (15 or higher in gurps reduces the maintenance by 1 per round, allowing many protective spells to be maintained for free, ). When would that kick in? 75% for -1(15)? 100% for -2(20)? 125% for -3(25)?

[peterb]

Originally Posted by Tywyll

Actually, it's a bit wonky since technically skills that are a 0% are just that, and you have to buy them from there. Spells would, assumedly, start at 0 unless you bought them, at which they become 30% or whatever the new base is.

You could perhaps do something like the MRQ version, wherein you spend 10 skill points at which you gain the skill at INT+POW, and VHard Spells at (Int+Pow)/2. Then add Magery perhaps?

Well, that would certainly work. The main thing is to not make it too easy nor too difficult to play a inexperienced mage.

Originally Posted by Tywyll

At what point would you become immune to those penalties though? As I understand it, you simply can't cast those spells without doing those gestures and rituals, until a certain level of skill at which point you lose those requirements, but you aren't able to cast without the rituals. Or would you simply use the limitations instead?

I'll use the penalties. At high skill levels mages will be able to afford those penalties.

Originally Posted by Tywyll

Lower casting cost? The spells cost seems about the same between the two systems. Sometimes mush more (Protection costing 2xpt of protection and only lasting a minute!).

I'm referring to the lower cost to maintain spells that good casters get. See below...

Originally Posted by Tywyll

That doesn't seem particularly fair to the casters, unless you are keeping the rules that at a certain level of skill you can reduce the maintenance cost of a spell (15 or higher in gurps reduces the maintenance by 1 per round, allowing many protective spells to be maintained for free, ). When would that kick in? 75% for -1(15)? 100% for -2(20)? 125% for -3(25)?

I would use the reduced maintenance cost rule. Multiplying a Gurps skill level by 5 (as you did seems the right thing), so yes: at 75% the maintenance cost is reduced by 1, at 100% by 2 and at every additional 25 percentiles of skill by an aditional one point. The minimum cost would, still, be 1.

[Tywyll]

Originally Posted by peterb

Well, that would certainly work. The main thing is to not make it too easy nor too difficult to play a inexperienced mage.

Definitely agree with that.

I'll use the penalties. At high skill levels mages will be able to afford those penalties.

Sounds reasonable.

I'm referring to the lower cost to maintain spells that good casters get. See below...

I would use the reduced maintenance cost rule. Multiplying a Gurps skill level by 5 (as you did seems the right thing), so yes: at 75% the maintenance cost is reduced by 1, at 100% by 2 and at every additional 25 percentiles of skill by an aditional one point. The minimum cost would, still, be 1.

I think that if the duration is staying to a minute (on average) especially if you allow other magic systems in the same game, you'd have to allow high skills to eventually drop the cost to 0, as you can in Gurps. There are still penalties for casting spells while maintaining others (-1 per spell you have active, so I'd guess that would be a -5%), I think there is still a self correcting element to it.

[peterb]

Originally Posted by Tywyll

I think that if the duration is staying to a minute (on average) especially if you allow other magic systems in the same game, you'd have to allow high skills to eventually drop the cost to 0, as you can in Gurps. There are still penalties for casting spells while maintaining others (-1 per spell you have active, so I'd guess that would be a -5%), I think there is still a self correcting element to it.

Ah, I didn't think of that aspect (i.e. comparing with other magic systems). Then it makes sense to allow a really skilled mage to maintain spells at no cost. The skill penalty is not that large but a failed concentration roll (for example after an injury) would probably mean that all maintained spells are dropped.

[Tywyll]

Originally Posted by peterb

Ah, I didn't think of that aspect (i.e. comparing with other magic systems). Then it makes sense to allow a really skilled mage to maintain spells at no cost. The skill penalty is not that large but a failed concentration roll (for example after an injury) would probably mean that all maintained spells are dropped.

Yeah, that's another problem with converting the levels straight to level by 5%, or a -1 being simply a -5%, since those modifiers and skill levels are on a bell curve, and a flat -1 can quite easily equate to a heck of a lot more than 5%! But, from a play perspective, it would probably be the easiest modifier to apply.