D&D 4th edition rules and what we can learn from them...

[Lord Twig]

Originally Posted by frogspawner

A related worry I have is the "Two year jump in story time line" that is mentioned for 4E. Does that mean there'll be no conversion of existing 3.x characters? If that's true, then goodbye to the character-continuity requirement of RP! Also, are they seeking to dictate what happens in every D&D GM's personal setting? Or are they asserting there is only one world (or a few) for D&D play - and it/they are the property of WotC?

4th edition has a built in "Ending". Each character is supposed to be created with a final Epic Destiny in mind. After a character reaches 30th level they embark on their final adventure and achieve that epic destiny, and therefore leave the game.

Congratulations! You won D&D! You are now free to create a new character and start over again!

Epic Destinies:
4th Edition Excerpts: Epic Destinies

As for converting 3.5 to 4.0, I don't think they are at all concerned with it. It appears to me that they expect everyone to just "finish" their game, make new characters and start over in 4.0. You don't have to get rid of your world though! You can just have some world shattering catastrophe explain all of the changes that are taking place. They even give you ideas how to do it.

Catastrophic Endings:
Steal This Hook! - The Sky Is Falling!

[Harshax]

this thread has 1d3 chaos features.

[Trifletraxor]

Originally Posted by Harshax

this thread has 1d3 chaos features.

I rolled them acording to the BRP chaos feature table. It was 2:

1) Owerpowering stench causes nausea in any who breath near it.

and...

2) Hideous appearance of creature demoralizes those who it beats in a POW vs. POW resistance roll.

Pretty nasty!

SGL.

[Harshax]

Originally Posted by Trifletraxor

I rolled them acording to the BRP chaos feature table. It was 2:

Either you fudged those rolls, or vBulletin has a Chaos Table Hack.

[rust]

Originally Posted by Trifletraxor

Hideous appearance of creature demoralizes those who it beats in a POW vs. POW resistance roll.

Hideous indeed, and I really feel somewhat demoralized by it ...
The question whether D&D 4.0 is an RPG or not must have a lot of POW ...

[Harshax]

Originally Posted by rust

The question whether D&D 4.0 is an RPG or not must have a lot of POW ...

After looking at the leaked files, all I'll say on the matter is that D&D is not not an RPG. There aren't any rules that make role playing verboten and no DM guidelines suggesting that players should retire to the drawing room while you clear the table and prepare the next melee battleground.

I think it is very cool that you could run it strictly as a skirmish game, without a DM. The DMG has some suggestions about it too.

Sorry, I couldn't resist. I so want this horrible thread to die and be replaced with 3 different threads:

I hate D&D
I like this about D&D and will use it
Personality Mechanics and Gaming

[frogspawner]

Originally Posted by Lord Twig

4th edition has a built in "Ending". Each character is supposed to be created with a final Epic Destiny in mind. After a character reaches 30th level they embark on their final adventure and achieve that epic destiny, and therefore leave the game.

Congratulations! You won D&D! You are now free to create a new character and start over again!

Epic Destinies:
4th Edition Excerpts: Epic Destinies

As for converting 3.5 to 4.0, I don't think they are at all concerned with it. It appears to me that they expect everyone to just "finish" their game, make new characters and start over in 4.0. You don't have to get rid of your world though! You can just have some world shattering catastrophe explain all of the changes that are taking place. They even give you ideas how to do it.

Catastrophic Endings:
Steal This Hook! - The Sky Is Falling!

Thanks for that - most informative, though it is bitter-sweet to have one's worst suspicions proved right.

This is not just an "I hate DnD" thread, for me at least - I am genuinely looking for things to learn from 4E. The trouble is there's precious little that's good - mostly it's teaching us what not to do in an RPG.

Yes, RPG - it is still an RPG. As I said before, anything can be RP-ed. So you could have "Noughts and Crosses - the Role-Playing Game" (with the exact-same rules as we all already know) and it would be an RPG. Sadly, though, 4E appears to be trying to twist what "role" means: to just combat function instead of character personality.

WotC seem to have succumbed to the classic GM temptation, becoming controlling instead of enabling (like GS's Glorantha?). And their reasons are obviou$.

[Enpeze]

Originally Posted by Dredj

Basically, BRP will probably never be seen on the shelves of my FLGS, because more and more people are going for miniatures games

No, please dont confuse it. Miniature Games like D&D4e ARE roleplaying games. At least according to Wizards of the Coast and some participants of this thread.

And next year WotC is producing a MONOPOLY variant with some castles for houses, dragonlair for jail and gold pieces included and label it at the front cover as "Dungeonopoly - the new 3D roleplaying experience". I am sure some people will love this game for its potential for roleplaying. The rules of this game would be not that important, as long as you can play you character between movement from hotel- ahem- castle to lair and vice versa. I mean hey why not? Its Wizards of the Coast. They know what a rpg is, no? If they are putting their rpg label at the front of game box/book, it IS one!

Other examples of this exceptional tolerant view what a rpg is, are WoW, Everquest, Advanced Heroquest, Warhammer Mordheim, Fighting Fantasy Books, this thread and of course Talisman. (at least I heard from people who used to play out their Talisman characters ingame and with a game master)

[rust]

Now, let us take a look at a common (Wikipedia) definition of roleplaying ga-
mes:

A role-playing game (RPG; often roleplaying game) is a game in which the
participants assume the roles of fictional characters and collaboratively cre-
ate or follow stories. Participants determine the actions of their characters
based on their characterization, and the actions succeed or fail according to
a formal system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, players can improvi-
se freely; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the games.

Can one do all this with D&D 4.0 ?

- assume the role of a fictional character: yes
- collaboratively create or follow stories: yes
- use rules to decide the success of actions: oh, yes
- improvise freely within the rules: well, yes
- shape the direction and outcome of the game: yes

Is D&D 4.0 a roleplaying game, according to this definition ?

Obviously, yes.

Do we need another, more narrow definition of what an RPG is ?

Not in my opinion, I have no idea what it could be good for.

So, could we let it stand there, please ?

[Enpeze]

Originally Posted by frogspawner

Thanks for that - most informative, though it is bitter-sweet to have one's worst suspicions proved right.

This is not just an "I hate DnD" thread, for me at least - I am genuinely looking for things to learn from 4E. The trouble is there's precious little that's good - mostly it's teaching us what not to do in an RPG.

Yes, RPG - it is still an RPG. As I said before, anything can be RP-ed. So you could have "Noughts and Crosses - the Role-Playing Game" (with the exact-same rules as we all already know) and it would be an RPG. Sadly, though, 4E appears to be trying to twist what "role" means: to just combat function instead of character personality.

This focus on "what is important" is perfectly suited to a skirmish game. And for this D&D 4 is great. I play 4e since several weeks as skirmish game and our group loves it. Its a much better designed game than 3.5 or earlier versions.

Originally Posted by frogspawner

WotC seem to have succumbed to the classic GM temptation, becoming controlling instead of enabling (like GS's Glorantha?). And their reasons are obviou$.

Well controlling the things the players do from 1st level heroic path dungeon crawl to 30th level destiny path crawl is an old trick for achieving an integrated game experience which has a similar quality for everybody. Many good boardgames do this. For example Talisman ends when you get the crown of the country after going through 3 tiers of difficulty. D&D 4e ends when you reach your destiny after going through 3 tears of difficulty (heroic, paragon and epic). Nothing special except that the quality of 21st century D&D4e rules have improved dramatically in comparision to AD&D of the 90ties. They are not more complex than previous editions but are offering you more possibilities (for example with the help of predefined keywords, eg if a monster gets the keyword "dazed" because beeing target of one of your powers it means that you and others in your team gets "combat advantage" with +2 to hit)