D&D 4th edition rules and what we can learn from them...

[Enpeze]

Originally Posted by rust

Now, let us take a look at a common (Wikipedia) definition of roleplaying ga-
mes:

A role-playing game (RPG; often roleplaying game) is a game in which the
participants assume the roles of fictional characters and collaboratively cre-
ate or follow stories. Participants determine the actions of their characters
based on their characterization, and the actions succeed or fail according to
a formal system of rules and guidelines. Within the rules, players can improvi-
se freely; their choices shape the direction and outcome of the games.

Can one do all this with D&D 4.0 ?

- assume the role of a fictional character: yes
- collaboratively create or follow stories: yes
- use rules to decide the success of actions: oh, yes
- improvise freely within the rules: well, yes
- shape the direction and outcome of the game: yes

Is D&D 4.0 a roleplaying game, according to this definition ?

Obviously, yes.

Do we need another, more narrow definition of what an RPG is ?

Not in my opinion, I have no idea what it could be good for.

So, could we let it stand there, please ?

I think you should first take a look at the 4e books before answering your own questions with "yes".

[rust]

Originally Posted by Enpeze

I think you should first take a look at the 4e books before answering your own questions with "yes".

Rest assured that I did take a close look at what has been published until
now. I will definitely neither buy nor play it, as mentioned "upthread", but
I will also not give it a dishonourable discharge from the ranks of RPGs.

[Tywyll]

Originally Posted by Enpeze

I think you should first take a look at the 4e books before answering your own questions with "yes".

Having done so, I can say that 'yes' fits the bill to all those questions. You may have limited yourself to playing it as a skirmish game, but that is up to how your group used it, not what you can and cannot do with the game. BRP could be played as a skirmish game if you wanted. All games if you simply focus on combat can be reduced to such.

Since we aren't debating Gamist-Simulationist-Narrativist styles of play, and last time I checked, BRP still fell in the GS camp rather than the N camp, the only thing missing from 4E currently (and even that is debatable) is a detailed setting to use the rules in.

[Enpeze]

Originally Posted by Tywyll

Since we aren't debating Gamist-Simulationist-Narrativist styles of play, and last time I checked, BRP still fell in the GS camp rather than the N camp, the only thing missing from 4E currently (and even that is debatable) is a detailed setting to use the rules in.

Not really true. In the DMG there is a valley and a city description. Additionally a 4e forgotten realms sourcebook and module is coming up later this year. Next year will be Eberron the focus.

[Enpeze]

Originally Posted by rust

Rest assured that I did take a close look at what has been published until
now. I will definitely neither buy nor play it, as mentioned "upthread", but
I will also not give it a dishonourable discharge from the ranks of RPGs.

D&D was never a very honourable rpg so a final discharge is not that extreme. On the other hand, now it finds its proper place as a rising star in the boardgame genre .

[Nightshade]

Originally Posted by Enpeze

D&D was never a very honourable rpg so a final discharge is not that extreme. On the other hand, now it finds its proper place as a rising star in the boardgame genre .

I think we've established at this point you don't think its an RPG, and I think we've established that a number of the rest of us aren't buying it. Is this round and round still serving any sort of purpose?

[rust]

Originally Posted by Nightshade

Is this round and round still serving any sort of purpose?

Yep, it is. Just think of the Guiness Book of Records and the next entry on
The Longest Forum Thread. We are working hard on it.

[frogspawner]

One thing to learn from D&D is the giving of rewards for RolePlaying. IMO this is A Good Thing. In 3.5 there were extra XP for RP - still a crude mechanism, but better than nothing (which is what by-the-book BRP has, even now).
Mind you, is that bonus going to survive into 4E? Perhaps it'll be improved...

(Let's get that record... )

[soltakss]

Originally Posted by Enpeze

I think you should first take a look at the 4e books before answering your own questions with "yes".

Just looking at the summary at the start of this thread, it looks as though:

- assume the role of a fictional character: Clearly this is a major part of the game
- collaboratively create or follow stories: This is clearly possible as scenarios don't seem to be completely closed
- use rules to decide the success of actions: No problem here
- improvise freely within the rules: Probably as much as any game - you can play BRP very rigidly and not allow improvisation and you can play D&D and allow improvisation
- shape the direction and outcome of the game: Simply by their actions they can shape the way the campaign/hame goes

So, I honestly can't see how it cannot be a RPG.

Perhaps this is the classic BRP vs D&D (or the old RQ vs D&D) revisited.

I know some D&D players who would be very put out if you said they didn't play a RPG. I can't see that changing in D&D4. D&D isn't my cup of tea, I like RQ too much, but it has a lot going for it.

[Enpeze]

Originally Posted by frogspawner

One thing to learn from D&D is the giving of rewards for RolePlaying. IMO this is A Good Thing. In 3.5 there were extra XP for RP - still a crude mechanism, but better than nothing (which is what by-the-book BRP has, even now).
Mind you, is that bonus going to survive into 4E? Perhaps it'll be improved...

(Let's get that record... )

No. They took it out in 4e (you know why...)